Comments by "Steve Valley" (@stevevalley7835) on "The Drydock - Episode 129" video.

  1.  @BrigadierBill  iirc, Germany was trying to get on the Naval Treaty system, as it would supersede the limits of the Versailles treaty. The allies were trying to find some way to prevent the construction of the Deutschlands, which complied with the letter of the Versailles treaty. A switch to the Naval Treaty system would manifest itself one of two ways: the Deutschlands would be classified as cruisers, with gun size limited to 8", which would make them slow, underarmed, heavy cruisers, or the ships would be made larger/more expensive, mounting guns up to 16". So, presume the allies allowed Germany to join the treaty system early enough to forestall construction of the Deutschlands, what happens, is the question? I would expect that Germany would go straight to the Scharnhorsts. Without already having the 11" gun in hand, because the Deutschlands were not built, Germany would probably go straight to 15", buying the technology, if not the guns themselves, from Italy, if need be, to advance the construction schedule. The knock-on effects would be interesting too. If Germany was allowed to build 35,000 ton battleships, pleas to France to build the Dunkerques below treaty limits would probably fall on deaf ears. Without Strasbourg clogging up the St Nazaire drydock. Jean Bart could have been laid down at the same time as Richelieu, so they both would have been commissioned just as France fell, and escaped to French West Africa. As Dunkereque and Strasboug would not exist, the Mers el Kabir attack would probably not have happened as all that would have been there would be two hopelessly obsolete battleships and a handful of DD.
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  2.  @WaverleyWanderer  your question sounds close to what I proposed in the ship profile post Q&A a couple days ago: what if the WNT gave the RN two licenses for future BB construction in 1927 and 29, like France and Italy received, instead of being allowed to build the Nelsons immediately. As Todd said, the bar on BB speed had been raised significantly by 1930. In planning the KGV,s seems the Admiralty did not even seriously consider 16" guns when First London permitted them. I ran some quick estimates and the three triple 15" armament proposed for the KGVs would have weighed 850 tons more than the 14" armament the ships ultimately received. I would suspect that, with 1930 powerplants, it could be impossible to build a heavily armored. 28 kt, ship with the weight of 9-16" guns. I'm sure there was a reason the Admiralty wanted 14" guns on the KGVs, and negotiated the gun size reduction in Second London. The Admiralty didn't revisit 16" guns until the collapse of the treaty system allowed them to increase displacement to over 40,000. Considering the alternative, I suspect that, with the two licenses in hand, the RN would not have responded to the Deutschlands, as they apparently didn't even consider the Deutschlands enough of a threat to spend the money to modernize both Renowns at that time. Most likely, and best outcome, for the RN, would be to see the first two Littorios laid down in 34, and use the licenses to advance the timeline for the KGV class, laying down KGV and Prince of Wales in 36, with Duke of York and Anson laid down on January 1 of 37. That would have the RN, at the time of Bismark's breakout, with four KGVs in commission, instead of two KGVs and two old, slow, Nelsons.
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  3.  @damndaniel2880  So, you are assuming someone assassinated Darlan in June of 40. With the chain of command broken Admiral Muselier, having been named head of the Free French Navy by de Gaulle on July 1, issues his first order to all freedom loving French sailors to follow his lead to push the Boche out of France. So, when the RN shows up on July 3rd, Gensoul follows orders, and weighs anchor to be escorted past Gibraltar, rendezvous with Richelieu and Jean Bart and steam to England for refit, primarily replacement with British AA armament for which ammunition can be resupplied. So, when Bismark attempts it's break out, Richelieu, Dunkerque and Strasbourg are in Scapa, ready for action. The French squadron makes for the Denmark strait, because it's a farther run and the French ships are faster, while KGV and PoW, being slower, make the shorter trip to the strait between Iceland and the Faroe islands. So the three French ships engage, heading straight for the Germans, as all of their main armament is forward, and this approach provides the smallest target for the Germans. Then Richelieu's wonky ammunition blows up three of it's barrels, and they only have four spares on Jean Bart. Richelieu retires, while Dunkerque and Strasbourg, with their thoroughly tested high velocity 13" guns, press the attack. Yes, could be interesting.
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  4.  @jamesd3472  My suspicion is that the Admiralty's architects had determined that the combination of 16" guns with the speed and armor they wanted in the KGVs was a no-go. Design work on the KGVs started when 16", as well as 15", guns were still legal. Doing a bit of back of the envelope figuring, I get an estimate for the 3-triple 15" turrets considered for the KGVs as being some 850 tons heavier than the 14" arrangement they settled on. 16" would probably be even heavier, unless they cut back the number of guns. The Littorios and Bismarks mounted 15", but they also significantly exceeded treaty displacement limits. The North Carolinas mounted 16", but are considered underarmored. The South Dakotas mounted 16", but were slow, in spite of using bleeding edge powerplant technology that was not available to the Brits when the KGVs were designed. The escalator clause of Second London allowed the return to 16" guns, if a party refused to sign the new treaty by April 1937, which the Japanese said in 34 that they would not do, but the tonnage increase was not specified. The escalator clause said the parties would try to negotiate tonnage escalation to a new point. So, because of that poor planning, the UK and US wasted over a year arguing about the new tonnage limit, the US wanting 45,000 while the UK looking for something in the 41-42,000 ton range. Once the tonnage increase was agreed, then the UK proceeded with the Lion class, but, by then, battleships were pretty much irrelevant and the Lions with their 16" guns were stillborn.
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