Comments by "OscarTang" (@oscartang4587u3) on "TIKhistory"
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@DragonMP652
1. It proves your first point didn’t prove anything.
2. Realised Socialism is still Socialism. I surely know that Marx allow personal private property. It is your words against your words, as you are the one said Socialist doesn’t allow private property.
3. and 4. It actually is with extra step, the country still directly controls those industries controlled by party members.
5. Want to take the power the same way didn’t mean they have same ideology.
6. As his action was aim to serve its socialsed entity the race 32:44 instead of maximising profit, the state can still consider as Socialist state instead of state Capitalism.
7. Industry even before the war need to produce under resource and production quota. How much control over mean of production they have?
8. Socialism required plan economy, that is the whole thing of Socialist economy. What else do you think socialist economy work? With free market. And yes Germany had plan economy, every heard about 5 year plan of Germany.
9. “Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.” (Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1848) It is within the 10 measure to revolutionising the mode of production.
10. Lebensraum didn’t include any country in the western and southern front, so it can be both, German started the War with economic reasons and start the Eastern front with ideological reasons.
11. and 12. Marxist Class Socialism believes in equality under the entity of proletariat, they don’t believe in equality for bourgeoisie, hands the term dictatorship of the proletariat. Similar National racist socialism believes in equality under the entity of Aryan.
13. As you said Communism ≠ Socialism
14. I bring it up as you said the killing of Rohm Represents the death of the NSDAP’s “left wing”, or implying anything. In fact, killing anyone on the same political spectrum happened within socialists leadership and those who purge was still considered as socialist. Thus “killing other socialists” cannot really support your narrative, and furthermore, Nazi still puts out a lot of leftist policy after they get the power.
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@Karkafs-Desiderium Not with Marxism and Marxist Leninism. You might be right if you are using any revisioned Communist theories.
The Original Marxism was quite tolerate violent and dictatorship.
"Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat." ("Communist Confession of Faith")
“Freedom in this field can only consist in socialized man, the associated producers, rationally regulating their interchange with Nature, bringing it under their common control, instead of being ruled by it as by the blind forces of Nature; and achieving this with the least expenditure of energy and under conditions most favorable to, and worthy of, their human nature.” (“Das Kapital v3,” p593.)
Just a "socialized man," not a "democratically elected man."
" ....the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror." (The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna, 1848)
Why would you think the idea of Lenin was clearly against the action of hitler, stalin and mao?
Lenin is the one who started the red terror.
First Lenin came for Anarchist in 4/1918.
Then Lenin came for the Socialist Revolutionary in 7/1918.
Then Lenin came for kulak( peasants who owned over 8 acres of land) in 8/1918.
Then Lenin came for the striking and rioting industrial workers in 3/1919.
For the Priests, monks and nuns? 3,000 of them were put to death in 1918 alone.
Lenin was also the one who issued the “Hanging Order”
“Comrades! The kulak uprising in your five districts must be crushed without pity ... You must make example of these people.
(1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich bastards, and known bloodsuckers.
(2) Publish their names.
(3) Seize all their grain.
(4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram.
Do all this so that for miles (versts) around people see it all, understand it, tremble, and tell themselves that we are killing the bloodthirsty kulaks and that we will continue to do so ...
Yours, Lenin.
P.S. Find tougher people.”
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@S0me0ne353 Nazism can be defined as a socialist ideology because:
1. Hitler wanted to end class inequality too, he claimed that is one of the "obligations on our shoulders" stated in Mein Kampf.
2.Hitler attempted to organize the economy (26:29) centrally and increase the social welfare (11:27), workers had fixed wages, “private sector” could not fire or hire workers without the permission of DAF, and heavily subsidized by the State (17:15, 17:31), and most of those “private sector” were controlled by Nazi member.
3.Hitler’s action aimed to serve its socialized entity, the race (32:44), instead of industrializing Russia demonstrates, clearly rejected the practice of capital export, which was characteristic for the phase of state (monopoly) capitalism (37:47).
4.Hitler want to solve the solve his “Shrinking Market Problem” through agriculturalise the Lebensraum, to create a constants regulated supply and demand between the Reich for the industrial products and Lebensraum for the agricultural products (34:48)
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5.Regarding Nationalised Trade Union:
Historically Nazi, Fascists and Communist Regime had the same approach toward trade Union——Nationalisation. Nazi nationalised all Labor Union into DAF, like Cuba nationalised all Union into CTC, USSR to ACCTU, and Italy to Fascist Trade Unions.
Ideologically, Lenin said
“Today we can no longer confine ourselves to proclaiming the dictatorship of the proletariat. The trade unions have to be governmentalised; they have to be fused with state bodies. The work of building up large-scale industry has to be entrusted entirely to them. But all that is not enough. “(V. I. Lenin Report at the Second All-Russia Trade Union Congress January 20, 1919)
In real life, use the CTC of Cuba as an example.
Non of them have right to strike and collective bargaining. (Por Pedro Pablo Morejon, There Aren’t Any Real Unions in Cuba)
“There was no change in Cuba where the single trade union system persists, there is no genuine collective bargaining and the right to strike is not recognised in law. “ (2007 Annual Survey of violations of trade union rights - Cuba)
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6.Regarding arresting leftist opposition:
More leftists were killed in the great Purge of USSR and PRC than that Nazi Germany in peace time (1933 to 1939).
According to the official record, at least 41,000 Red Army personal were sentenced to death by Military Courts and 10000 more Political prisoners (not ex-kulaks) were executions in the Gulag during the great purge.
In PRC: In Sufan movement of 1955-1957 which targeted the counter revolutionary within the party and the government, 53,000 abnormal death.
While in Nazi German:
“Historians estimate the total of all those kept in the concentration camps in 1933 at around 100,000, and that does not count those picked up by the SA, beaten, kept for a time, and released without being formally charged. The estimates for these “wild” camps run to another 100,000.” (Gellately, R. “Hitler’s True Believers: How Ordinary People Became Nazis.” p158. )
Out of those 200,000 prisoners, from various sources can be found online, the highest number of German Communist (the left elements) executed/died in Concentration Camp was ranged from 20000 to 30000.
In the low end of the estimation, only 600 communists were killed in 1933. (Gellately, R. “Hitler’s True Believers: How Ordinary People Became Nazis.” p158. )
“[Hitler] rejected from the outset the idea that the millions who voted for the KPD or the SPD could simply be “forbidden” [from the people’s community], and he was fully aware that the process of getting them integrated in the community could take years.” (Gellately, R. “Hitler’s True Believers: How Ordinary People Became Nazis.” p163. )
“By July 1934 only around 4,700 prisoners remained, and a Hitler amnesty on August 7, 1934, cut the number to 2,394, 67 percent of whom were in Bavaria.” (Gellately, R. “Hitler’s True Believers: How Ordinary People Became Nazis.” p162. )
The rest of those 200,000 were released from the concentration camps.
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7.Regarding Racial and National Socialism/Communism
Socialism can cooberate with conservative nationalism and racism as proven by the history and the ideology of Arab socialism and Labor Zionism. They are both ethos-centric, leftist and considered as Socialism, while both want to cleanse the other side from the same holy land.
Even Communist States in real life cooperated Nationalism with their Marxist Leninism. Milovan Đilas, who popularised the term "national communism" in his New Class (1957), wrote: "No single form of communism ... exists in any other way than as national communism. In order to maintain itself it must become national."
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Albert Pietzch seems you altered the origin quote.
"Pietzsch has been an adviser of Hitler since 1925, and is [[[alleged to be]]] one of the men who financed Hitler in the early days of the Nazi Party." ("Elimination of German Resources for War”, Senate Committee on Military Affairs, 1945.)
PS: alleged: said or thought by some people to be the stated bad or illegal thing, although you have no proof:
(Cambridge Dictionary)
Hermann Schmitz--"Hermann Schmitz became an early supporter of Hitler, with whom he collaborated in making IG Farben a vast spying organization under a commercial cloak."
The whole quote didn't show that Hermann Schmitz funded Hitler, not to mention funding Hitler before January 1933.
Dr Max Ilgner—["Dr Max Ilgner, the foreign minister of IG Farben, ... who not only financed the rise of Hitler but sought to weld the interests of IG Farben and Nazism into an instrument of world power.”]
Right in the next paragraph it said:
"Soon after the accession of Hitler to power, it was realized that Nazism would offer excellent potentialities for expending the interest of IG Farben, both in Germany and throughout the world.”” ("Elimination of German Resources for War”, Senate Committee on Military Affairs, 1945.)
It seems Dr Max Ilgner financed the rise of Hitler after the accession of Hitler to power, which at least happened after Hitler became canceller in January 1933
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That is Marxist class Socialism. Have you ever head about Utopia Socialism, with is an Socialism predated Marxism and didn’t use class theory.
The definition of Socialism is social ownership of mean of production. The socialise entity can be race, class or even gender. National Socialism is not Marxism but both are socialism. Hitler Socialism is race socialism which socialised by race instead of class like Marxist Class socialism. The socialised enemy of class socialism is the capitalist, while the socialised enemy of race socialism is Jews. As communism and class socialism are the product of Karl Marx(a Jews), so he also hated them as Class socialism hate capitalist.
Even the mean of production of the “early socialist state”(revolutionary state) mentioned in Communist Manifesto is belonged to the state not worker cooperative.
“ 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.”
(The Communist Manifesto,1848)
For the part of State Capitalism, his action had a further goal to socialise the socialsed entity the race 32:44, and maximum the interest of all (Aryan) people within the society, (similar to the end goal political fiction of classless communist state) instead of just maximum the profit of the state or the oligarchy. Therefore, They cannot be classified as State Capitalist
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It was not "Nazism was actually good" made Nazism meet the standard of Socialsim, it was @skummelkatt
[The workers has always remained power less] So as USSR
Inequality is irrelevant to how socialistic a state is as long as they are not exploited by the “capitalists.” USSR would be a great example, proven by the lavish lifestyle of Brezhnev and the following case.
Fred Copeman was disillusioned by the level of inequality in the Soviet Union in his official delegation to USSR in 1938, and on his return, he ceased to be a member of the Communist Party.
[The unions (if there were unions to start with) were overtaken or destroyed by the regime]
Again so as USSR
“Today we can no longer confine ourselves to proclaiming the dictatorship of the proletariat. The trade unions have to be governmentalised; they have to be fused with state bodies. The work of building up large-scale industry has to be entrusted entirely to them. But all that is not enough. “(V. I. Lenin Report at the Second All-Russia Trade Union Congress January 20, 1919)
[So the very core ideas with socialism is lost.]
Socailism in Communist States often lacked those [very core idea].
[The whole nationalism thing is a conservative idea]
Again pretty much the norm of Communist States.
The facts you stated were totally correct. However those attribution also applied on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, dictators from other Communist States. And those Communist dictators and their ideologies are still being recognised as socialism. That is why under the same ultra low standard, you cannot refuted Hitler and his ideology from Socialism, yeah, we best with the reasons in your statement.
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@opanike87
Thank you for your introduction to your wish to contribute to the betterment of all people with total collective ownership and control of mean of production, I would like to know by how? It seems most of the mean to achieve this goal one way or another would be infringing the right, and freedom of people and the democracy of society.
"The Birth of Fascist Ideology" also debunked the misconception of Nazism is fascism. (TL;DR racism is never the purpose of an fascism, but it is for Nazism)
“Before proceeding any farther, we have to insist on another element of the definition we are proposing. Fascism can in no way be identified with Nazism. Undoubtedly the two ideologies, the two movements, and the two regimes had common characteristics. They often ran parallel to one another or overlapped, but they differed on one fundamental point: the criterion of German national socialism was biological determinism. The basis of Nazism was racism in its most extreme sense, and the fight against the Jews, against“inferior” races, played a more preponderant role in it than the struggle against communism. Marxists could be converted to national socialism, as indeed quite a number of them were; similarly, national socialism could sign treaties with Communists, exchange ambassadors, and coexist with them, if only temporarily. Nothing like this, however, applied to the Jews. Where they were concerned, the only possible “arrangement” with them was their destruction.
Certainly, racism was not limited to Germany. At the end of the nineteenth century, biological determinism developed in a country like France too; but if it was a factor in the development of the revolutionary Right, racism in its French variant never became the whole purpose of an ideology, a movement, and a regime.
In fact, racial determinism was not present in all the varieties of fascism. If Robert Brasillach professed an anti Semitism very close to that of Nazism, George Valois’s “Faisceau” had none at all; and if some Italian Fascists were violently anti-Semitic, in Italy there were innumerable Fascist Jews. Their percentage in the movement was much higher than in the population as a whole. As we know, racial laws were promulgated in Italy only in 1938, and during the Second World War the Jews felt much less in danger in Nice or Haute-Savoie, areas under Italian occupation, than in Marseilles, which was under the control of the Vichy government.
Racism was thus not a necessary condition for the existence of fascism; on the contrary, it was a factor in Fascist eclecticism. For this reason, a general theory that seeks to combine fascism and Nazism will always come up against this essential aspect of the problem. In fact, such a theory is not possible. Undoubtedly there are similarities, particularly with regard to the “totalitarian” character of the two regimes, but their differences are no less significant. Karl Bracher perceived the singular importance of these differences, which Ernst Nolte (this was his chief weakness) completely ignored.” - Prof Zeev Sternhell, "The Birth of Fascist Ideology", p5
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The economic policy of Nazi Germany did able to make its economic system ascend from capitalist mode of production under Marxist theory.
Under the capitalist mode of production:
1.Both the inputs and outputs of production are mainly privately owned, priced goods and services purchased in the market.
Production is carried out for exchange and circulation in the market, aiming to obtain a net profit income from it.
Inputs and outputs of production are State owned (German businessman to American businessman, from Reimann, "The Vampire Economy,”)
2.The owners of the means of production (capitalists) constitute the dominant class (bourgeoisie) who derive its income from the exploitation of the surplus value.
No free Market in Nazi Germany (The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy: The Case of Industry)
Surplus value was controlled and regulated by the state.
3.Surplus value is a term within the Marxian theory which reveals the workers' unpaid work.
“Hitler’s Beneficiaries” makes clear, most of the taxes were levied against the rich, the corporations, and foreigners like the Jews.
They weren’t levied against the poor, who had their food, rend, clothing, and recreational activities (plus others) subsidized by the State. ( Aly, “Hitler’s Beneficiaries,” see Chapter 2.)
4. A defining feature of capitalism is the dependency on wage-labor for a large segment of the population; specifically, the working class, that is a segment of the proletariat, which does not own means of production (type of capital) and are compelled to sell to the owners of the means of production their labour power in order to produce and thus have an income to provide for themselves and their families the necessities of life.
There was no wage-labor, because work were guaranteed, and the wages or salaries in Nazi Germany were fixed by DAF instead of market-determined. ( Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” p109.).
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