Comments by "OscarTang" (@oscartang4587u3) on "TIKhistory"
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@Schnoz42069
Historical fact show that Nazi Germany gradually eliminate unemployment, the taxes were levied against the rich, the corporations, and foreigners like the Jews. They weren’t levied against the poor, who had their food, rend, clothing, and recreational activities (plus others) subsidized by the State. ( Aly, “Hitler’s Beneficiaries,” see Chapter 2.)
“Family and child tax credits, marriage loans, and home-furnishing and child-education allowances were among the measures with which the state tried to relieve the financial burden on parents and encourage Germans to have more children.” (Aly, “Hitler’s Beneficiaries,” p38-39.)
In addition to this, there were price controls, wage controls, rent controls, and centralised distribution of goods - materials could only be bought with certificates which had to be obtained from one of the various central planning boards which distributed said materials.( Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” p51-52, p67-70, p251-254.)
The “private profit” of those “private companies” were forced to redistribute among the workers ( to further the Nazi goal) by the DAF, the party subordinates.
"A year or so ago I was ordered to spend social evenings with my 'followers' and to celebrate with them by providing free beer and sausages. The free beer and sausages were welcome enough ... Last year he (The Labor Front secretary) compelled me to spend over a hundred thousand marks for a new lunchroom in our factory. This year he wants me to build a new gymnasium and athletic field which will cost about 120,000 marks." (Reimann, The Vampire Economy, p. 112)
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@spudrph Toshiba and Metropolitan-Vickers profited from having business with the USSR in 1987 and 1933, respectively.
If Hilter can be classified as Capitalist just because American capitalism “supported” him, Hitler would also be a Communist, because not only did Foreign Capitalist “supported” Nazi, Soviet Union also “supported” Nazi Germany with 1,600,000 tons of grains, 900,000 tons of oil, 200,000 tons of cotton, 140,000 tons of manganese, 200,000 tons of phosphates, 20,000 tons of chrome ore, 18,000 tons of rubber 100,000 tons of soybeans, 500,000 tons of iron ores, 300,000 tons of scrap metal and pig iron, 2,000 kilograms of platinum though German–Soviet Credit Agreement (1939).
At the same time, Nazis entailed Soviet obligations to deliver 180 million Reichsmarks in raw materials and German commitment to provide the Soviets with 120 million Reichsmarks of German industrial goods.
Fascist Italy also provided the USSR with the ship design blueprint of the Kirov-class cruiser and even helped them build the destroyer Tashkent.
Soviet communists were “supported” by Nazi German, Fascist Italy, not to mention the supported by lend-lease from the Capitalist USA during WWII.
With that logic USSR communism would just be the Nazism, Fascism, and Capitalist.
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1. Fascism is still a class theory base ideology, a variation of Class Socialism from Karl Marx, which should not be adaptable to Race Socialism. If you really what to brigde NS into syndicalism, you might need to put more time to investigate the class theory within NS (not the racism within Fascism).
"As a French Marxist who supported Lenin, Bolshevism and Mussolini concurrently in the early 1920s,[8][9] Sorel promoted the cause of the proletariat in class struggle, and the “catastrophic polarization” that would arise through social myth-making of general strikes.[10] The intention of syndicalism was to organize strikes to abolish capitalism; not to supplant it with state socialism, but rather to build a society of worker-class producers. This Sorel regarded as “truly true” Marxism.[11]" (from wiki of Fascist syndicalism)
2. If the state can just control and remove the socall "crony" just because they refused to cooperate, it is not crony capitalism, as the "crony" has no leverage on/ restraint to the state and is under state control. Not even mention NS just scam those industrialists with MEFO that never payoff.
"If the “leaders” refused to cooperate, the factories that they supposedly owned were taken off them. Professor Junker of the Junkers aeroplane factory was the first to be thrown out of his own business as a result, but he wasn’t the only one.”
(Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” Kindle Chapter 2. Temin, “Soviet and Nazi Economic Planning in the 1930s,” p576-577. Tooze, "Wages of Destruction," p111-113.)"
About State Capitalism, Communist State IRL during and after Cold War was just State Capitalism with political fiction of socialising proletariat into Communist State. With the political fiction in 32:44, the Socialist practice of NAZI Germany was still within the range of Communist States (Yugoslavia, USSR post 1960, Czechoslovakia and Cuba). There should not be double standards, if those Communist State was still considered as Socialist State, so as NAZI Germany IRL.
3. There is no Orthodox Socialism, there is just Orthodox Marxism. Even Carl Marx not dare to monopolised th ideology of Socialism. If Nazism and Fascism are too stigmatise to prove that Marxism didn’t monopolise the ideology of Socialism. Just read the Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx criticised Bourgeoisie Socialism and Utopia Socialism did not advocate class struggle and cannot achieve the goal of Communism world. He admitted there are other socialism other than Marxism and its variations.
4. TIK point is more about the nationalisation of trade Union which is a trade of Socialist Country (NS, Fascist, and Communist States) more than just prohibited by law from going on strike.
5. It is the problem of set and subset, Communism and NS are two small circles within the big circle of Socialism, there is no incessant conflating between NS and Communism.
6./7. Again, there is no Orthodox Socialism, there is just Orthodox Marxism. Even Carl Marx not dare to monopolised th ideology of Socialism. The ideology between NS and Orthodox Marxism/Communism can be totally different and irrelevant to discussiion as long as the felt under the set of Socialism.
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@hobbso8508
"No, they just use nationalism. The justification is irrelevant."
1.The foundation of nationalism within fascism is built on Class theory, while the Foundation of NS is built on racial theory. Two ideology was build on two different theory, how can the one be a variant of the other?
"You are confusing your own ideology with facts."
2. It seems like a fact for me that , "I am not the only one classify USSR PRC and Cuba as socialist states. And those countries surely without the “non Western Democracy” that has the same criteria of Western Democracy within your funky Socialism definition."
"
"3. And what is the criteria of "western democracy"?"
"a. Sovereignty of the people
b. Multi party system
c. Separation of powers
d. Respect for individual human rights"
So...democracy. Yes, any socialism that works through a state requires that."
3.No historian put Sovereignty of the people, Multi party system, Separation of powers and Respect for individual human rights into the definition of Socialism.
"Marx and Engels literally said outright that the very first thing to do in a socialist state would be to establish democracy.
Again, you post quotes you do not understand. They are referencing a pre-socialist state, not one that has established socialism."
4. They are not referencing a pre-socialist state, they are referencing the socialist state that moving toward to Communism state.
You see the " as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class. "
within the
"If the proletariat, during its contest with the bourgeoisie, is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class. " ( Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1848)?
The elimination of classes indicate that a Socialist State transform into a Communist State.
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You also cherry-picked his point to accuse TIK of cherry-picking.
You left out the part TIK quoted in 6:18
[Manufacturers in Germany were panic-stricken when they heard of the experiences of some industrialists who were more or less expropriated by the State. These industrialists were visited by State auditors who had strict orders to “examine” the balance sheets and all bookkeeping entries of the company (or individual businessman) for the preceding two, three, or more years until some error or false entry was found. The slightest formal mistake was punished with tremendous penalties. A fine of millions of marks was imposed for a single bookkeeping error. Obviously, the examination of the books was simply a pretext for partial expropriation of the private capitalist with a view to complete expropriation and seizure of the desired property later. The owner of the property was helpless, since under [National Socialism] there is no longer an independent judiciary that protects the property rights of private citizens against the state. The authoritarian State has made it a principle that private property is no longer sacred.]
Also, Nazis expropriated all the private property rights entitled by company shares in 1937.
" Correspondingly, when the Nazis turned their attention to corporate law, culminating in the enactment of a new corporate law in 1937, managerial authority was expanded at shareholders’ expense (Levy, 1950: 215). While the 1937 legislation codified various shareholder-friendly measures in the emergency order issued in 1931 a predominant theme was to shift powers away from shareholders acting collectively by way of resolutions and from the supervisory board to the head of the management board (Kessler, 1938). This was done in accordance with the tenets of “Führerprinzip”, with the idea being to have companies run by a strong leader, undistracted by shareholder intervention, to the benefit of employee welfare, the People, and the Reich (Mertens, 2007).24 For instance, shareholders lost the right to vote on dividend policy and on the dismissal of directors (Mertens, 2007: 95-96). Moreover, the government was empowered to dissolve any corporation deemed to endanger the national welfare without the need to compensate shareholders (Mertens, 2007: 101)." ("THE RISE AND FALL OF THE GERMAN STOCK MARKET, 1870-1938", Carsten Burhop).
Regarding Röhm, TIK did mention the second revolution in 39:30. Even after Röhm's death, Hitler still implemented many leftist welfare policies, including fixed employment, price controls, wage controls, rent controls, and centralized distribution of goods listed in 15:30.
["völkische Staat", were eveything is done to the benefit of "the people".]
That is just basically Socialism when you mix this idea with totalitarianism, which Hitler rule Germany with.
[And this all meant to Hitler to drag the world into another war that would kill tens of millions. With most of the killing done through plunder, resulting famine and mass murder in Eastern Europe mostly.]
Communists also love to start wars (Winter War, the Invasion of Poland twice, the Invasion of BalticCountrie,s and the invasion of Afghanistan). They also killed their people through plunder, resulting in famine and the mass murder of tens of millions. That is not even an argument to disprove Hitler as a Socialist.
Regarding the definition of Socialism used in this video, it was "Social ownership of the mean of production" in 25:40.
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TIK sources are quite balanced here. Out of 20 sources listed in the Bibliography of this video, 6 sources are from anti-Communists like Melgunov, Mises, Popper, Peikoff (objectivist), and Ayn Rand, and order 6 are from Marx, Lenin and Stalin.
The other 8 sources seem to be pieces from historians.
In this particular, this video referenced two Lenin’s works, they are “Two Tactics of Social-Democracy in the Democratic Revolution" ,1905 and "What Is To Be Done?", 1902, respectively.
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@charleymount582
[sold off all of the shares, but put the company under heavy government regulation. The profits still went to the private sector, not the government]
First off, how would the private sector get any profit directly from buying things? Isn't the real profit come from selling stocks which the Nazi state actually did?
Secondly, privatisation was a Nazi Scam.
Nazi renationalised all the control of state property that was previously sold to private sector as stock since 1933 with corporate law in 1937 by removing the shareholders “right to vote on dividend policy and on the dismissal of directors (Mertens, 2007: 95-96). Moreover, the government was empowered to dissolve any corporation deemed to endanger the national welfare without the need to compensate shareholders (Mertens, 2007: 101).” (THE RISE AND FALL OF THE GERMAN STOCK MARKET, 1870-1938)
Bank Act of 1934 allowed the government to exercise tight control over private banks(Bel, “Against the Mainstream,” P20.),
Every public own firm that were sold to the bank during privatisation were also eventually went back to the control of the Nazi State.
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Fascism is not the reverse of Communism, which would actually killed the land and the factory owner. They believed the class struggle would not able to determinately overthrew the Capitalist society (Prof Zeev Sternhell, "The Birth of Fascist Ideology", p66)
, and advocated a free-market society in that different classes coexist in harmony with “an equality of expenses, efforts, and labor for all men, as well as an equality of profits and salaries.” ( Prof Zeev Sternhell, "The Birth of Fascist Ideology", p66, p147)
They will not kill any Jews or bourgeoisie because of their own ideology, they will only kill the liberals and the communists.
Fascism actually is a more egalitarian ideology than Communism at least in theory.
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[the state intervened very little in the economy]
There are plenty of socialist policies implemented by the Nazis and advocated within Nazism.
1.Hitler wanted to end class inequality too, he claimed that is one of the "obligations on our shoulders" stated in Mein Kampf.
2."Workers had their food, rend, clothing, and recreational activities (plus others) subsidized by the State."(Aly, "Hitler's Beneficiaries," see Chapter 2.)
3."The employment and wage of workers were also regulated by the DAF." (The Vampire Economy p.109)
4."Profit, as Point 14 of the Nazi ‘Twenty-Five Points’, declared in 1920, was to be shared out among the community."
5."As Götz Aly’s book “Hitler’s Beneficiaries” makes clear, most of the taxes were levied against the rich, the corporations, and foreigners like the Jews. They weren’t levied against the poor, who had their food, rend, clothing, and recreational activities (plus others) subsidised by the State."(Aly, “Hitler’s Beneficiaries,” see Chapter 2.)
[ mainly Nazi production was carried out in concentration camps (not to be confused with extermination camps)]
At its height at the end of the war, concentration camp labor made up 3 percent of the labor force in Germany, remaining a quantitatively marginal element of the economy of Nazi Germany.
Buggeln, Marc (2008). "Were Concentration Camp Prisoners Slaves?: The Possibilities and Limits of Comparative History and Global Historical Perspectives"
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@gladys2563 [Being anti-liberal (anti- free market) doesn't automatically mean you're a socialist.]
Nazism is a socialist ideology because:
1. Hitler wanted to end class inequality too, he claimed that is one of the "obligations on our shoulders" stated in Mein Kampf.
2. Hitler attempted to organize the economy (26:29) centrally and increase the social welfare 11:27, workers had fixed wages, “private sector” could not fire or hire workers without the permission of DAF, and heavily subsidized by the State (17:15, 17:31), and most of those “private sector” were controlled by Nazi member.
3. Hitler’s action aimed to serve its socialized entity, the race (32:44), instead of industrializing Russia demonstrates, clearly rejected the practice of capital export, which was characteristic for the phase of state (monopoly) capitalism (37:47).
4. Hitler want to solve the solve his “Shrinking Market Problem” through agriculturalise the Lebensraum, to create a constants supply and demand between the Reich for the industrial products and Lebensraum for the agricultural products
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@nukethepentagon The definition of Socialism is an ideology that advocates “Social Ownership of means of production”, which appropriates the surplus product produced by the means of production or the wealth that comes from it to society at large or the workers themselves. ("Theory and Practice in Socialist Economics")
Even after ditching Otto Strasser, the Nazi economic system was able to achieve social ownership of the means of production.
The surplus product produced by means of production and the wealth derived from it were appropriated to society as a whole by the State and to workers by DAF. The way how Nazi Germany appropriated the surplus product met the description of two principal variants of social ownership of the mean of production according to the following source.
"Here again there are two principal variants of such social claims to income, depending on the nature of the community holding the claim: (1) Public surplus appropriation: the surplus of the enterprise is distributed to an agency of the government (at the national, regional, or local level), representing a corresponding community of citizens. (2) Worker surplus appropriation: the surplus of the enterprise is distributed to enterprise workers." (Toward a Socialism for the Future, in the Wake of the Demise of the Socialism of the Past, by Weisskopf, Thomas E. 1992. Review of Radical Political Economics, Vol. 24, No. 3–4, p. 10)
Nazi Germany did gradually eliminate unemployment, the taxes were levied against the rich, the corporations, and foreigners like the Jews. They weren’t levied against the poor, who had their food, rend, clothing, and recreational activities (plus others) subsidized by the State. ( Aly, “Hitler’s Beneficiaries,” see Chapter 2.)
“Family and child tax credits, marriage loans, and home-furnishing and child-education allowances were among the measures with which the state tried to relieve the financial burden on parents and encourage Germans to have more children.” (Aly, “Hitler’s Beneficiaries,” p38-39.)
In addition to this, there were price controls, wage controls, rent controls, and centralised distribution of goods - materials could only be bought with certificates which had to be obtained from one of the various central planning boards which distributed said materials. (Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” p51-52, p67-70, p251-254.)
Historical fact also indicated that DAF in real live was not pro-capitalist. Capitalists were also being regulated by the DAF. Under the new National Socialist regulations (enforced by the DAF), the concepts of “employers” and “employees” were done away with, being replaced with the terms “leaders” and “followers”. And while some “followers” did complain about the new system, saying it was benefiting the “leaders” at the expense of the “followers”, their “leaders” also complained about the new system.
(Evans, “The Third Reich in Power,” p107. Lindner, "Inside IG Farben,” p70, p83. Shirer, “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,” p327-329.)
“Yes, I am the ‘leader’ in my factory; my workers are my ‘followers.’ But I am no longer a manager...
(Herr A. Z. quoted from Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” p107.)
I cannot decide what is allowed or forbidden in my own factory...
(Herr A. Z. quoted from Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” p109.)
There have been cases where managers were removed by the Party of Labor Trustees and replaced by ‘kommissars.’ ”
( Herr A. Z. quoted from Reimann, “The Vampire Economy,” p116.)
Furthermore, the “private profit” of those private companies would still be forced to redistribute among the workers ( to further the Nazi goal) by the DAF, the party subordinates, or directly by the Nazi Government.
"A year or so ago I was ordered to spend social evenings with my 'followers' and to celebrate with them by providing free beer and sausages. The free beer and sausages were welcome enough ... Last year he (The Labor Front secretary) compelled me to spend over a hundred thousand marks for a new lunchroom in our factory. This year he wants me to build a new gymnasium and athletic field which will cost about 120,000 marks." (Reimann, The Vampire Economy, p. 112)
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@arcioko2142 According to “Anti-Dühring, the "Stateless Society" just means a ruling entity without "repression and class conflicts" but with the same function of state. The people are still under the governing of “administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production” which has the same function of government.
“Whilst the capitalist mode of production more and more completely transforms the great majority of the population into proletarians, it creates the power which, under penalty of its own destruction, is forced to accomplish this revolution. more the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialised, into state property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production in the first instance into state property. But, in doing this, it abolishes itself as proletariat, abolishes all class distinctions and class antagonisms, abolishes also the state as state. … When at last it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a state, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the state really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a state. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The state is not "abolished". It dies out.” (Anti-Dühring, Frederick Engels)
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