Comments by "Historia, Magistra Vitae" (@Historia.Magistra.Vitae.) on "Benito Mussolini: The Man Who Destroyed Democracy" video.

"So Socialism wasn’t the evil it’s portrayed to be after all. " Wrong. It was. After all, Fascism was a totalitarian far-left, socialist ideology based on National Syndicalism adapted from Georges Sorel. Fascism, as created by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile, comes from a belief that the "Stateless and Classless society" Communism calls for after its dictatorship cannot achieve Socialism, and that only the State can properly organize a Socialist Society.
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"ultra right-winged nationalism. " There is no such thing. Nationalism is devotion to the State which sees all other states as inferior and in competition. Right wing ideologies do not embrace Nationalism, but rather Patriotism. In all Right wing ideologies, the Individual is superior to the State. In Socialist ideologies the collective (such as the State) is superior to the individual.
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"that was still pro-private property" Actually, they weren't. Individual ownership rights were understood to be strictly subordinate to collective discipline. It was not the individual ownership of property that concerned Fascists, but its subordination to collective control. Property was understood to perform social functions rather than to manifest individual rights. It was clear that the conception of property as a social function was broad enough to include socialization of the means of production, should that be required by the national interests as interpreted by the state.
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@dontworryillwait3689 Fascism was a socialist ideology.
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@tefky7964 : What definition? This is politics 101.
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@tefky7964 "Also right wing has been always associated with rules and hierarchies, which aren´t exactly synonyms of individualism." That was before the French revolution. When it comes to modern day politics, the fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing ideologies center around the the rights of individuals vs. the power of the government. Left-wing beliefs are based on the idea that society is best served with an expanded role for the government. People on the right believe that the best outcome for society is achieved when individual rights and civil liberties are paramount and the role — and especially the power — of the government is minimized.
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You did. You were always a socialist.
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@zealisrealfan "Fascism is an ideology reflecting the contradictions of trying to maintain capitalism in its late stages, " Wrong. Fascism had nothing to do with Capitalism whatsoever. They strictly opposed it, which is why they implemented a socialist Command economy model known as Corporatism. Also there are no "stages" in Capitalism.
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Fascism was a totalitarian Far-Left, socialist 3rd position ideology based on revolutionary National Syndicalism which they adapted from a French Marxist, known as Georges Sorel (Sorelianism). It rejected individualism, capitalism, liberalism, democracy, and marxist interpretation of socialism ("class warfare" / "historical materialism"). Instead, it advocated for class collaboration where the means of production was organized by national worker syndicals (i.e. trade unions / Fascist Corporatism), and the guiding philosophy of the state was Actual Idealism (Neo-Hegelianism). Being an outgrowth of Sorelian Syndicalism, (which itself was an outgrowth from Marxist socialism), its idea was that society would be consolidated (i.e., incorporated) into syndicates (in the Italian context, fascio/fasci) which would be regulated by and serve as organs for the State, or "embody" the State (corpus = body). The purpose was the centralization and synchronization of society under the State, as an end unto itself. To quote Mussolini's infamous aphorism: "All within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State." As finalized by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile ("the Doctrine of Fascism"), Fascism came from the belief that the "Stateless and Classless society" Communism calls for after its "dictatorship of the proletariat" cannot be achieved, and that only the State can properly organize a socialist society. Therefore, Fascism cared about unity in a strong central government with society being brought together by syndicalist organizations obedient to the State. [01] "La Dottrina Del Fascismo / the Doctrine of Fascism" by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile [02] "Che cosa è il Fascismo: Discorsi e polemiche / Origins and Doctrine of Fascism" by Giovanni Gentile [03] "the Philosophy of Fascism" by Mario Palmieri [04] "Fascism: An Informal Introduction to Its Theory and Practice" by Renzo De Felice [05] "Mussolini's Intellectuals" by A. James Gregor [06] "La Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni" by Rabaglietti Giuseppe & Sergio Panunzio [07] "Teoria generale dello Stato Fascista" by Sergio Panunzio [08] "The Birth of Fascist Ideology" by Zeev Sternhell [09] Any work from Emilio Gentile
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@zealisrealfan "Fascism isnt an economic model, nor is there only one version of it." I never said it was. It was a political ideology which had a socialist economic model based on revolutionary National Syndicalism, which they called as Corporatism ("corporativismo" in Italian). It was one of the cornerstone principles in Mussolini's Fascism, and had to do with the way society and the economy would be organized, with State power at the head of a system of nationalized syndicates ("corporazione") representing each major industry. Mussolini's corporatist view stressed total State power over businesses as much as over individuals, via these governing industry bodies controlled by the Fascist party, in which businesses retained the responsibilities of property, but few if any of the freedoms. Each profession and field had their own Syndicate, which in turn, operated symbiotically with its composed members, whose activities and interactions were managed and coordinated by the Government. The idea was to let the State control and direct the economy from the top-down without itself directly owning the means of production.
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@zealisrealfan " It a diverse group of ideologies, all united by the conditions i describe while what you state is specific to Italian fascism." There is no other Fascism than Italian Fascism, unless we are strictly talking about Neo-Fascist movements.
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@zealisrealfan "Even then it was not socialism, that was the point. Ill redefine my terms to be more clear." Wrong. It was socialism. By definition, socialism is an economic system where the collective (such as workers, guilds, syndicates, unions, the government etc.) either directly own or control the buildings and tools that make goods and services like farms and factories. This can be achieved through decentralized and direct worker-ownership, or through centralized state-ownership or control of the means of production. Fascism had the latter via Command economy.
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@zealisrealfan "“Socialism is a socio-economic system where the workers who, as a collective own and thus control the means of production, take an active democratic role in an economy driven by utility over profit, and are compensated in proportion to the work they put in.”" What you are describing here is called Marxism, not socialism.
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@zealisrealfan "”Capitalism is a socio-economic system where Capitalists, who own the means of production, pay workers a wage to produce commodities so that they can make profit.”" This is not what Capitalism is about either. Capitalism is an economic system that maintains that the production of goods and services should remain in the hands of private individuals and businesses, not governments. To be successful, these individuals will produce the goods and services needed by the public, at the prices that the public is willing to pay. The law of supply and demand will determine what goods are produced and the quantities of them that are produced. Competition among businesses will ensure quality and affordability, as the drive for greater market share will encourage innovation.
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@zealisrealfan "The Italian Fascism were talking about is inseparable from Capitalism, because it started under Capitalism." Wrong. Fascism had nothing to do with Capitalism of any kind whatsoever and again, Fascism was anti-capitalist. Regarding how it started, in the early 20th century, nationalists and syndicalists were increasingly influencing each other in Italy. From 1902 to 1910, a number of Italian revolutionary syndicalists including Arturo Labriola, Agostino Lanzillo, Angelo Oliviero Olivetti, Alceste De Ambris, Filippo Corridoni and Sergio Panunzio sought to unify the Italian nationalist cause with the syndicalist cause and had entered into contact with Italian nationalist figures such as Enrico Corradini. These Italian national syndicalists held a common set of principles: the rejection of bourgeois values, democracy, liberalism, capitalism, Marxism, internationalism, and pacifism while promoting heroism, vitalism, and violence. Not all Italian revolutionary syndicalists joined the Fascist cause, but most syndicalist leaders eventually embraced nationalism and were among the founders of the Fascist movement, where many even held key posts in Mussolini's regime. Mussolini himself declared in 1909 that he had converted over to revolutionary syndicalism by 1904 during a general strike.
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@zealisrealfan "With rising socialist movements calling for the working class to establish socialism," There were many socialist groups in Italy during that time, and the Fascists were one of them. Again, what you are referring to here is only the Marxist faction, and one of the major reasons for the Fascist uprising ('Biennio Rosso').
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@zealisrealfan "This Fascist Italy was not Socialist," Wrong. By definition it was.
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@zealisrealfan "there was still a wealthy class of property owning employers in control of the means of production" This wasn't a thing under Fascism. State controlled the means of production, and individual ownership rights were understood to be strictly subordinate to collective discipline. It was not the individual ownership of property that concerned Fascists, but its subordination to collective control. Property was understood to perform social functions rather than to manifest individual rights. It was clear that the conception of property as a social function was broad enough to include socialization of the means of production, should that be required by the national interests as interpreted by the state. "The cornerstone of the Fascist doctrine is its conception of the State, of its essence, its functions, and its aims. For Fascism the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative. Individuals and groups are "conceivable" in so far as they are within the State." — the Doctrine of Fascism
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@zealisrealfan "It was an alternative to socialism that kept their status in society ... Italian Fascism was a reaction to the growing socialist movements." Wrong. Fascism was an alternative and a reaction to Marxism. Marx didn’t invent socialism, his theories formed his version of socialism called Scientific Socialism; which is an embarrassing moniker give there’s no data or science in any of his theories. The earliest form of socialism was Utopian Socialism, which didn’t demand a totalitarian government to destroy society on the basis of class; so you can see how Marx ushered in a new genre of Socialism that focused solely on class struggle. But this socialism, like the one it replaced was losing converts. At one point a "Yellow Socialism" movement stepped up to counter the “Red Socialism” of Marx, which advocated business owners and workers could coexist -which had the idea of syndicalism within it too.
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@zealisrealfan "This was all a result of the economic conditions created by capitalism. " Nothing to do with Capitalism whatsoever which was barely even a thing in Italy during that time. Italy had only begun its industrial development.
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@zealisrealfan "The workers did not own these companies, they just had the limited power to negotiate within them. ... It was a system of extensive regulation and class cooperation, not worker dominance." Because Fascism wasn't Marxism. It was another, rival socialist ideology based on revolutionary National Syndicalism.
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@zealisrealfan "they were still owned and managed by private capitalist. " Wrong. They were owned and managed by the State via Corporatism. “The Fascist State directs and controls the entrepreneurs, whether it be in our fisheries or in our heavy industry in the Val d'Aosta. There the State actually owns the mines and carries on transport, for the railways are state property. So are many of the factories… We term it state intervention… If anything fails to work properly, the State intervenes. The capitalists will go on doing what they are told, down to the very end. They have no option and cannot put up any fight. Capital is not God; it is only a means to an end.” — As quoted in Talks with Mussolini, Emil Ludwig, Boston, MA, Little, Brown and Company (1933), pp. 153-154, Interview took place between March 23 and April 4, 1932 1930s
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@zealisrealfan "The fascist government was not the collective, it was the party." Government is a form of a collective, so is a political party etc.
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@zealisrealfan " Socialism is about how resources are produced and distributed independent of how the state operates, being state owned doesn’t make it socialism. " Wrong. By definition, socialism is an economic system where the collective (such as workers, guilds, syndicates, unions, the government etc.) either directly own or control the buildings and tools that make goods and services like farms and factories. This can be achieved through decentralized and direct worker-ownership, or through centralized state-ownership or control of the means of production. Fascism had the latter via Corporatism.
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@zealisrealfan "Its about workers having control over the economy, something fascist italy did not give them. " Again, that is called Marxism which is just one of the many socialist ideologies / theories.
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@zealisrealfan "There have been many fascist nations and movements throughout time. Italy, Germany, Japan, are the infamous. Others include 1930s China, 30s Spain, 30s Portugal, 70s Chile, 60s Haiti, and more. I’d even include Apartheid South Africa and India." Wrong. Just one; Italy under Mussolini. Germany, Japan and the rest of the countries mentioned didn't have Fascism.
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