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Comments by "" (@bdinaz) on "Biographics" channel.

This is an apocryphal story the tell in Mexico to try and justify his actions. But usually the story goes that it was the local merchant who sold him faulty ammunition. Neither of which were ever alluded to at the time, nor is any paper trail available on either side of the border in any contemporary accounts.
19
@greenllama2856 Once again I gotta stress that the US Army does not sell ammunition. Contractors might... The traditional unproven story is that a merchant in Columbus. Possibly one of the Ravell Brothers was the person who Villa was angry at. But no proof exists to this day.
11
@Pacific-qu7en history is different than Mexican Tall tales.
10
@ratherbewargaming3753 the US story is based on documentation. The Mexican telling of apocryphal Villa stories is based on inflated tales told around campfires for 100 years. Much wishing would make it so going on.
9
@Pacific-qu7en culturally the truth must be valued before it is accurately collected, analyzed, and processed. In the US army they have traditionally done so in after action reports (AAR) going back with limited exceptions to the founding of the nation. That is done to improve performance and decrease unnecessary casualties. sometimes these reports prove very embarrassing but without them learning cannot occur. I see no such desires on the parts of the Villista or Carrancista Armies who did not seemingly mind huge losses of casualties on the battlefield. Thus accurate information out of them was second to saving face. Hence the peculiar apocryphal stories that spring from the revolution... "VILLA captured and executed hundreds of US soldiers" "Villa lured US airplanes by wearing Carrancistas uniforms and having them land." "Villa put horseshoes on backwards to disguise direction of travel" And "Villa captured US soldiers and sent them back mercifully with only their ears cut off." Every single US casualty is well documented in the AAR's. But no such effort was undertaken on the Villista/carrancista side as it was not valued information.
9
@ratherbewargaming3753 Please find a contemporaneous account from a Villista Officer or enlisted man in which they have written home and said that they had been cheated in a weapons purchase in Columbus. Key is the document must be written prior to lets say April 1st 1916.
8
@kissthesky9969 once again I ask for proof beyond the apocryphal myths spouted around mexican campfires for the past 100 years. A bill of sale... A contemporaneous letter from a Villa associate at the time to someone else. Etc......
7
@MR-nl8xr hell, Columbus resides In the tract of land willingly sold by the Mexicans to the US in the Gadsden purchase lo ng after the war.
6
@dariomendoza1518 please prove it. Invoices?
5
@jorgenajar9407 the facts ARE well known. Military AAR's, court records of the testimony of the seven captured Villistas who were tried in Deming, and the interviews conducted with the kidnapped woman from the Mormon Colonia who observed from Cootes Hill, coupled with later testimony in the Silver City trials of later captured raiders gives us a very full picture of what happened. All of it establishes that much like Villas debacle at Hermosillo, villa intended to allow his troops to loot, rape, murder, and burn their way across Columbus. And having not learned from that embarassment the previous year, he got his forces ass kicked.
5
@spacemarinechaplain9367 I think it is a cultural thing extending from Mexico's lifetime history of graft amongst its leaders and supplication from its base population. The base controls nothing in Mexico, including its history. Nor does an accurate telling benefit them. So the base creates aural legends hat does benefit them. Thus Pancho Villa becomes a Saint to the base regardless of how shabilly he treated the common base of Mexico. The base NEEDS a hero, and all they got is Pancho.
5
@ricardoserrano565 really? You have proof that the Ravel Brothers sold ammunition and weapons to Villa? I would love to see that. A receipt will do. Or even a contemporaneous account by one of Villas deputies written prior to 1924 will also suffice. The gentleman who has provided the definitive account of Villas arms and ammunition purchases as well as other logistical purchases couldn't find any trace of the Ravel Brothers providing such to the Villistas. So try again. Almost all purchases were conducted at Texas crossings by American firms located well away from the border. Regarding the federal forces being allowed to cross us tracks to other fronts. What role did the 10 US civilian citizens robbed and executed at Columbus have to do with it? How about the 16 Civilians robbed and executed on the train in Durango? The Mormon families in the Colonia? The female population of Namiquipa?
5
@dBeastcoGlobal_ yeah, because they were invited and it was initially a good deal.
5
How do you equate getting 40% of his force killed as an immediate result of his attack on Columbus being smart?
5
@spacemarinechaplain9367 for all the supposed brilliance of his tactics, the only tactic he seemed to possess was a frontal mounted attack. Against a dug in defense with interlocking machine gun fields of fire, he just spent his conscripted Villistas lives like water. No problem for him, he would just press gang more in the next village or hacienda.
5
@MR-nl8xr concur. Much wishing would make it so going over the generations in Mexico.
4
@jorgenajar9407 nonsense. If he wanted to wrest the legally acquired by Gadsden purchase lands in New Mexico from the legitimate purchaser in the U S government. Why didn't he have the 340 surviving members of his ill fated raid begin digging in around Columbus? Instead like any good murderous bandido leader,, the priority he gave to his bandidos was to loot and burn the stores. Rob and murder the hotel guests. And begin moving towards the bank. This was all about theft from what he thought would be a soft and easy Yankee target. His sources in the town mistakenly told him that there were only 30 troopers at Camp Furlong and he believed he could overwhelm that force easily. Instead he faced an entire Battalion of 300 troopers who quickly reacted to keep him away from the bank and mow down his forces as the looted and burned the hotel with machine gun fire.
4
@stone0234 normally i would agree. But taxes weren't the case. The sought to rebell against amore centralized European style government. The wanted the same Mexican government they had been lured to. More decentralized and local in nature.... more like the US....
4
So you are saying he did not check the ammunition at time of purchase? I doubt that. This is just another apocryphal story by the Villa Apologists attempting to justify his actions.
4
@maurovillarreal2037 1.) There is no documented evidence anyone was sold blanks. 2.) There is no documented evidence that anyone was contracted to sell ammunition that later turned into a sale that provided blanks. 3.) There is no evidence anyone provided ammunition that contained sawdust vice gun powder. 4.) The US Army does not sell ammunition to other parties. Foreign or domestic. 5.) In 1916 the US Army was standardized around the 30.06 caliber cartridge. 6.) Both sides of the Mexican revolution had begun using the 7x57 Mauser which is different. 7.) The US Army would not thus have the ammunition on hand to illicitly sell.. Thus in order to sell 7x57 Mauser ammunition it would have had to be imported from Europe or South America. 8.) The other rifle commonly found with the Villistas was a Winchester model lever action 30-30 which the army would not have access to ammunition to feed as it was never a standard weapon in the US arsenal (regardless of Hollywood depiction) Thus the story of Villa being cheated in an ammunition deal with the US Government must be assumed to be apocryphal. Likely made up to provide a justification for the attack on Columbus.
4
@maurovillarreal2037 Please prove anyone was sold BLANKS.
4
@maurovillarreal2037 1.) Every third man in Mexico in the 1916 time- frame seems to have told his grandkids he was with Villa at Columbus. It seems to be the Mexican version of claiming to be a Navy SEAL in the war on terror. Of the approximately 500 Villistas that participated in the attack, 167 were counted as dead by the end of that day. Six more were executed in Deming after trial, a seventh Juvenile was deported. The Punative Expedition records count an additional 170 Villistas known to be at Columbus killed in the two months of active campaigning. That leaves 157 survivors of the Expeditions efforts. I guess those 157 fathered half of the children of Mexico in the following decade? Impressive... 2.) There are no contemporaneous accounts of an arms sale from either perspective in the 1910 to 1916 time frame. None. Zero. 3.) There are no contemporaneous accounts of Villistas being provided blanks. 4.)Blanks look totally different than actual live ammunition and at a glance could be differentiated. 5.) For your scenario to play out Viilistas would have to take possession of the ammunition- then never open the packaging it was delivered in. Then without looking at it load it in their rfles and bandaliers as Villistas were normally equipped. Then go into battle and try to shoot it. 6.) they would never test the ammunition upon delivery by job lot. Boy, these Villistas had to be THICK....
4
@maurovillarreal2037 Face facts. He wanted more of the pie and was going to take it. Are you so naive that you think he was going to set up some sort of paupers paradise? He was going to move in, execute his enemies, and live it up as a dictator like the rest of them.
4
@maurovillarreal2037 ooooh, so in Mexico "the girls were asking for it" works if their fathers and brothers are being lined up to be shot by the bandidos in question who have already stolen everything of value. REALLY? IS MEXICO STILL THAT FAR BACK? REALLY? Does Mexico need a thuggish "hero" so badly that it will cover for any and all behavior?
4
@stone0234 Slavery was only a small part of it. The erratic government of Santa Ana threatened rights previously held under the federalist constitution of 1824. That was it in large part....
3
@dariomendoza1518 This is a series of highly illogical statement. 1. Which men was Pancho dealing with? 2. Someone who would put as much value to honor as you impute to old Pancho in my opinion would not have his men rob innocent civilians before executing them. But then again maybe in Mexico it would be considered the norm? 3. 30 years prior to 1916 is 1886... 4. How did the US perform a form of surprise Attack on Mexico? Rather it was old Pancho who did the surprise attack. Please try again
3
Pedro Ruiz so you are saying LT Lucas did not employ the 13th Cavalry Machine gun Platoon to decimate the Villistas with grazing fire as they milled about in front of the Hotel? You are saying that there were not 67 Villista bodies found lying about Columbus the next morning as a result of LT Lucas efforts? Those bodies were not dragged about a kilometer southeast of town and burned using Kerosene? That seven Villistas were not captured and tried in a Deming court? Six of those receiving capital punishment by hanging and the seventh being released as a minor? You are saying that the testimony in that court did not reveal that the Villistas robbed the hotel residents before murdering them?
3
@donttrip2662 what about the history as I have laid out is not true. Be specific please
3
@dBeastcoGlobal_ actually they were. The Mexo an government was finding difficulties in settling the Texas region due to the Comanche raids. Not an unusual story since they had problems also settling New Mexico and Arizona as well. They were attuned to the exploitation colony paradigm and were not well set for a farm colony as the settlers from the east were. Thus they invited the settlers from what was then the US and asked for allegiance with the promise of limited governmental interference to keep Texas under control. But then Santa Ana got cold feet and ramped up his control in violation of the promises. Hence the Texas Revolution....
3
@dBeastcoGlobal_ know it all? No.... Know more? Obviously. Most people who glorify Villa do so based on "truths" that are easily disproven. Apocryphal tales they heard from Grandpa around a campfire that are easily disproven when compared to actual factual information.
3
@dBeastcoGlobal_ Well. Let's see.... I had access to after action reports from the 13th Cavalry Regiment, 10th Cavalry Regiment, and a myriad of duty logs from the entire US Army along the Mexican border for the time in question. I had access to contemporaneous news accounts from people writing for both local and distant papers who witnessed events. Sometimes personal correspondence from people who were at the scene as well as interviews with people on site. Best example was the Mormon mother kidnapped off the Colonia when her husband and cousin were executed by the Villistas. She was taken along to Columbus and witnessed the goings on from the Mexican point of view at Cootes Hill with Villa as she was in Villas company until it came time for his command group to flee back into Mexico as things actually "went south". Her account was worth a great deal in examining what happened at Columbus from the Mexican side. Almost no other sources exist due to the act of recording what happened being considered of such limited value, and the literacy wasn't terribly high to start with. How about facts like that?
3
@clavo6498 well, the journals do provide provenance that he made it to the western hemisphere. The vikings can make a claim to having the settlements in Greenland and Labrador according to archeological discovery, but no written records exist . That help you?
3
List one US soldier in 1916 who lined innocent villagers up to be executed by firing squad. I'll even give you ten years either way. Thus 1906 - 1926.
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@maurovillarreal2037 So, how do you know it existed? Told to you by the same guys who over the years have claimed: 1.) VILLISTAS killed 100 US soldiers from the 13th Cavalry and hung their bodies from trees in Palomas. (Palomas is and was treeless at that time. Ha!) 2.) Villistas used to wear Carracista uniforms to lure US airplanes to land and then capture the pilots. (All destroyed US aircraft are accounted for in logs and no entries mention captured pilots, flimsy early model Curtis aircraft mostly destroyed trying to land at base.) 3.) VILLA used to have his soldiers reverse their horseshoes to make it look like they were going the other way to confuse the cavalry. 4.) That Villa used to regularly capture US troops in pitched battles, mercifully cut off their ears and send them back as a warning. (No such records exist of Villa capturing anyone. Let alone US soldiers. If so then I am not the one with Santa Clause and Easter bunny issues.....
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@designationzero9979 please find any verified contemporaneous accounts that state Villa: 1.) removed an ear of any US soldiers. The press would have trumpeted that story back then so if it happened it should not be difficult to find a verfied account if it happened. 2.) Rhe story regarding the ammunition assumes none of was test fired before payment. If they paid, then accepted the ammunition without testing it, they are about the thickest amateurs around.
3
Imgladandrew gillumisnotmykang386 yes, those of us who know what live ammunition looks like as well as blank ammunition know that the story of Villa issuing out blank ammunition would have to be apocryphal. Either that or he did not care for the lives of his bandidos
3
@maurovillarreal2037 1.) what written soure material do you have saying that the Texas Law enforcement authorities had these rounds before providing them to the merchant in Columbus. Please ensure the material is contemporaneous to the 1915 to 1918 time frame. 2.) Your story indicates the Texas Law enforcement test fired the supposed rounds and found them inadequate, but Pancho did not and just issued them out with test firing by job lots? Says a great deal....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 please provide their source material. Google has plenty of out rageous material on it claiming all sorts of inaccurate nonsense (100 US Soldiers captured at Columbus and hung in Palomas, US aircraft lured to their capture by Villistas) etc.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 Seeing that All of Mexico believes the fictions involving Pancho, it is hard to believe their academic work would be better. But by all means please present it....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 interesting question. Which battle was it in particular that Villas troops lost due to inadequate ammunition sold them by Sam Ravel?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 The issue with Mexico is that it was culturally built from an Exploitation Colony and as such will always have the problems you cite in its national DNA. The Philippines have the same issues. Likely 100 years from now Mexico economy will be built on graft and the same social ills will still be in place. And largely that is because it is what the public is familiar with it and prefer.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 doubtful anything truly changed post revolution. Nor did the public clamor for it.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 assume you have a typo error in that post. Villa lost something like 40% of his force for whatever loot he could take from the pockets of the civilians at the hotel prior to executing them. Regarding the Ravel kid, nearly all accou ts told of the raid indicts he hid under a pile of either rugs or blankets until the raiders became distracted by the thought of looting. Then he made his escape into the surrounding fields. The few horses stolen from the 13th Cavalry Stables were mostly recovered by the Persuing cavalry along with much of the loot found amongst the approximatley 100 Villista bodies who had mostly succumbed to the wounds inflicted on them during the raid.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 That us the commonly romanticized view of the revolution. But reality was different. Villas force started with A partially volunteer force, but after the debacle s of Agua Prieta and Hermosillo in 1915 he was using a conscripted force taken off the Haciendas at gun point. No romance there. Testimony at the trials in Deming and Silver City of the captured Villistas paint that picture of a conscripted force living off the loot taken from the next Hacienda, town or village....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 there is no evidence that they got any substantial money during the raid, nor that Ravel was specially selected for any treatment not doled out to the innocent hotel guests they likewise robbed and murdered.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 and I read both sides when they are available, but in this case only one side truly kept records. The other side is not as interested in records, as much as the desire to live through myths passed word of mouth from generation to generation. If you read these entries it seems half of Mexicos grand fathers were on the raid to Columbus, even though it is known only 174 (-) were still alive by the end of the year, and fewer after the debacle as Juarez and the post revolutionary assassination sprees in the next year. Lots of stolen valor going on in Mexico in the years since 1916. And the tales they tell are accepted as gospel even though written records easily debunk them. To quote Tony Wilson, "When you have to choose between truth and the legend, choose the legend."
3
@maurovillarreal2037 Nor was the population aligned with the rebels who after a short time they saw as as well armed bandits who would take their food, what little money they had, and their adolescent sons who were drafted for their bands of theives. Mostly the population simply wanted both sides to leave them alone to their own problems.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 it is immaterial to the question of adequate history gathering to say someone had it bad. What is key to adequate history data collection is that the data is based on recorded fact, rather than whim. I swear in 50 years people in Mexico will be saying that Pancho Villa was the first man to walk on the moon. And when asked how they know this they will say their grandpa who always said he was on the Apollo mission told him when he was a little boy. And we will be expected to believe it even though our well recorded list of all Apollo crews do not show either Grandpa nor Pancho on the missions. And then we will be told by the Mexicans "well, you expected the US to tell the truth?" Sigh.....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 but you mistake the issue. The center of gravity is the accuracy of the presented history. Even when the US army did something dubious they recorded it accurately. This to the point that you can find accurate AAR of the Wounded Knee Massacre and all the other battles. Hell, we have such accurate history we can show you where each 7th Cavalry Casualty was killed during the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Add to that the amazing research in the past 30 years of that battlefield adding to the AAR gives us an unprecedented look at the history of the battle. On the other side of the coin, go to Agua Prieta and ask where the trenches were during thanpivotal battle (i have) and you get an unblinking stare as recording the history accurately takes a back seat to the camp fire story told by grandpa who might or might not actually have been in that battle....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 and which details differed between US and Mexican histories? And how were those histories researched?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 andnthose details contained what?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 please give me an example of the US Army not presenting its "dirty laundry" to the public.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 Yeah, I know, he started out as Doroteo Arongo, and the adapted several nom de Guerre as he went on as a bandit following his going AWOL from the Mexican Army. And his followers WERE bandits Even at the best of times of the Villistas they robbed and murdered their way across Mexico. Failure to accept that simple fact indicates a conscious decision to whitewash history.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 so what gap exists in the US Army Records of events in 1915-17 in operations along the Mexican border?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 Once again. 1.) Which supposed battle did Villa lose because he was provided inadequate ammunition by a US contractor. A man who researches legends in Mexico from U of Texas indicated the legend began when a certain Pablo lopez told the raiders on Columbus that their defeat months previously at Agua Prieta was due to being sold defective weapons and ammunition by the Ravel Brothers General store in Columbus. However there is no proof that that actually occurred and in reality the Villista defeat at Agua Prieta can be summarized as bone headed tactics by a commander who did not mind absorbing heavy casualties for no gain. Even the most inexperienced Platoon Leader knows that a horse mounted night attack on a fortified trenchline with plentiful barbed wire and machine guns and artificial lighting to allow excellent targeting is folly. I doubt 1 in 10 of the Villistas even attempted to fire their weapon during the attack. The lucky ones undoubtedly fled when first painted by the lighting of the searchlights. But as said before there is no actual evidence that such an arms deal actually occurred. 2.) There was a researcher in 1979 whose thesis dealt with Villas supply system during the revolution. He provided quite a good run down on who was providing ammunition and other classes of supply to Villa, including numbers of actual rounds of ammunition in each shipment and how they were delivered. No where in that thesis is the Ravel brother store in Columbus mentioned. 3.) A more likely explanation was Pablo Lopez needed a reason to exhort the Villistas tonruthlessly attack and the covert men who had infiltrated Columbus the day earlier to check it out came back telling him that the Ravel store was in operation.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 Well, as a retired Army officer I learned early on that the initial failure was never going to do damage. It was always a cover up that hurt you. That maxim is well used in the US Military and we are surprisingly open with our records and reports. And as stated before we at least keep records.....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 so what in this particular case was not reported on?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 he was called a bandit because he robbed people aT gunpoint and often executed them for little or no reason after his men rifled their pockets.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 it was not just the rich he robbed and killed. He took from.anyone who had anything, and he killed for little to no reason. Even your history will confirm that he prodded on his troops with low morale after the fiasco of Agua Prieta and Naco by promising them the could loot, rape, and murder when they captured Hermosillo. And his troops took him up on it. Which was a mistake yet again because while his troops were looting, raping, and murdering the citizens of Hermosillo, his distracted troops were surprised by the enemy and routed yet again. Which put him on the road to Columbus. But old Pancho never learns because he allowed his troops to do it again, and they were massacred by the 13th Cavalry Machine Gun Platoon on the street out side of the hotel where one again they were robbing and killing the guests. What don't you get that this was not the hero your history paints him to be?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 Because they were bandits.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 its not really tough is it? The dead bodies on the train, the street to Deming, Hermosillo, and the Mormon Colonia say enough. Was he just misunderstood when he ordered the 18 workers on the train executed? Could he have actually been saying "come in for tea" and his bandidos thought he was saying "rifle their pockets, then shoot them." He was a murderous thug who needed to take a dirt-nap far earler than he did.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 With position comes money, with money comes power. The commonly accepted mantra is that Pancho was a patriot. But maybe the Cartels show some small patriotic tendencies as well. He was still a murderous thieving thug who was mostly self interested. Why else quarrel with he fellow revolutionaries other than they fought over the spoils of their ill gotten gains.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 yeah, he cared so much for the lower class that he rounded them up, put them in lines for the firing squads and shot them. And he forcibly conscripted the young and healthy family workers from the haciendas. Executing any who were captured after deserting. Oh yeah, he was a prince of a guy.....
3
@maurovillarreal2037 all source material regarding Villa inducate he started as a bandit before becoming a share cropper, muleskinner, butcher, bricklayer and foreman for a railway After that he was arrested for stealing mules in 1902 and released to the army to avoid prison. After several months he deserted, killed an officer and stole his horse. He adopted the Villa nom de Guerrero to gain the higher profile if a well known bandit he was emulating in 1903. He stayed a bandit until the revolution in 1910 when he determined he could use the revolution to gain resources and hurt his enemies. He started as a thug, continued as a thug, and died ala Sonnie Corleone - a thug.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 oooooooh, so murderous thieves fighting a government are better than murderous thieves who buy off the government. Thanks for clearing that up for me......
3
@maurovillarreal2037 which Americans? Please have them explain that to me.
3
@maurovillarreal2037 so because the politicians were thieves that excuses Villa and his men being murderous bandits to the civilian populous?
3
@maurovillarreal2037 .....or they could actually search out and find someone who was not inherently a murderous thief. There had to be someone of honor in Mexico at that time. Or is the graft based culture of Mexico so poisonous he was the only option? I think I would start over if that is the case.....
3
J G which attack?
2
Hey Momma How? Please detail this.
2
@stone0234 it might be more fair to say the texas revolution was caused by that factor.
2
@stone0234 so what year did the government of Mexico declare the act of crossing from Louisiana into Texas illegal?
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@stone0234 well, by then it was a bit late to stop asking people to stop coming to texas.....
2
@stone0234 kinda key to your position.
2
@7mm08 Yeah, but the idyllic hero worship of old Pancho by people who dismiss his murderous graft ridden thievery must be confronted. If not we will see more of it.
2
@dariomendoza1518 if he purchased arms and ammunition without test firing it we would have to assume he was as thick as a brick and not worthy of the hero worship he receives.... For the record I do not feel Pancho deserves anything but hatred for his crimes....
2
@marianoyola5876 What?
2
@marianoyola5876 well, you mastered the emoji function. Now make a cogent and understandable argument ...
2
@donttrip2662 explain?
2
@vincentalegrete3562 gives credit to villa for being s strategic thinker. Which he never exhibited anywhere else. So its doubtful that it was his rationale. More likely he was recycling his thinking at Hermosillo where he sought to use potential riches and rape to keep his dwindling force together. Just picked the wrong country to mess with.....
2
I guess since there was no reply we can assume everything i laid out was accurate.
2
@dBeastcoGlobal_ where did I say only the US is educated?
2
@dBeastcoGlobal_ of course the terms were not kept, it is why even the Hispanic Texans were willing to revolt as well as the emigres. (Juan Seguin for instance.)
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@dBeastcoGlobal_ so knowledge is ego? Maybe south of the line....
2
@dBeastcoGlobal_ disproven? Ok. Let's start with the notion of the US Army selling Villa lever action rifles. 1.) The US Army has moved on to bolt action rifles in 1899. Had no access to lever actions. 2.) The US Army was prohibited from selling commercially available items such as Winchester. The US inventory of rifles were 30.06 not 30-30 so they would not have had access to lever action ammunition at that time. No paperwork exists saying Ravells were involved in any delivery or sale of weapons south of the line. All documentation indicates weapons and ammunition were actually contracted through companies in San Antonio and deliveries made at Texas border crossigs rather than New Mexico. Good enough for you?
2
@lonehesh8933 a key member? The same could be said of the leaders of the SS Einsatzgrupen. Hero or villain? You have to go through Huge gyrations to make him a hero. Keep studying and if you keep an open mind, and only mentally process the known facts instead of campfire tales the choice is quite easy to make. Getting personal about it? As a veteran with 24 years service I get personal about most subjects involving military history. I am just a bit more schooled on this particular subject having made a study of the conflict on the southern border 1915 to 1921. Couple that with having roots in the southwest on the ranches and mining towns gives one a firm base to review the data.
2
@darthchingaso3613 list 1 us soldier of the contemporary period who acted in this manner.
2
@natalialuisdevaldivia1632 he executed far more of his own people . Usually innocents who could not fight back.
2
@luisromero776 actually, there are three types of colonies. Farm colonies which is what the British instituted in North America to grow the nation and move the population base through-you guessed it- farming Spain on the other hand instituted only exploitation colonies with the intent of enslaving the people and removing the resources like Gold and Silver. No significant effort to move the population base and farming was an after thought. And Britain instituted prison colonies in Australia but that was converted to farm colonization in 1800's. That is the reason Mexico, Latin america, and the Philippines are so corrupt and the US and Aussies are not.
2
@dwightchaos9449 I will say he was more brutal than most. Just amonst his contemporaries and foes. Did John J Pershing line up villagers for firing squads after rifling their pockets for valuables? George S Patton? Herbert Slocum? It was a pattern associated with Villa. Simply look up his actions at the Battle of Hermosillo where he motivated his flagging conscript bandido rabble to attack through the same act of promising them they could loot and rape their way throuhh the city of Hermosillo.
2
@maurovillarreal2037 only in Mexico bubba.... Politicians murder in this country and will likely be tried, convicted, and inprisoned. This is with few exceptions that I cannot think of one right now. In fact one of the two candidates in the presidential election will likely be tried for his kickback schemes. In Mexico he would be congratulated for his ability to graft....
2
@maurovillarreal2037 it is a magnitude issue. US: An occasional person is murdered. MEXICO: bus loads are taken off, lined up, shot, and buried in mass graves. US: NAFTA is replaced by a newer, more fair trade agreement and companies that had fled to Mexico pack up and begin moving back to Ohio. MEXICO: Carrier Air Conditioning which had relocated to Central Mexico, packs back up and begins transferring back to Indiana. And so on and so forth.
2
@maurovillarreal2037 OH i see. Sort of like: How Pol Pot lowered the cost of food stuffs, and equalized education across Cambodia. AdolphHitler pulled Germany out of a depression. Bonito Mussolini made the trains run on time. Joseph Stalin opened up new lands to new farmers on the Steppes of the Ukraine. And Mao introduced manufacturing to China. They all seem to have made their lands there own. And it does not excuse the fact that like Pancho, they were all ruthless murdering thugs.
2
Does not compute. She would not go back to Columbus because who would ride? Villistas?
1
@bp5439 so she feared the Villistas? Plausible.
1
@stone0234 hmmmmmm, if they were officially invited, then they were not technically illegal.
1
Pedro Ruiz how so?
1
@alexsantillan8685 which battles involving us forces prior to 1974 did the NVA/VC win?
1
@victoriateague9012 what wasnt?
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BeastW you jest, right? England, France, Spain, Mexico, Germany, Italy, Japan, North Korea, China, and the USSR would beg to differ with you. Regarding North Korea the war started at the 38th parallel and last time I checked my camp in south Korea was north of that when I was assigned there in the 90's. Regarding Cuba, we freed them from Spain in 1902. Same same the Phillipines. Reference Vietnam, until a POLITICAL calculation was made by dems in 1974 the war had been won and the south was free from the shackles of communism. If during the final offensive a tri ship arc light strike had been conducted at Long Bihn it still would be free. Politics are as ruinous as graft in the former exploitation colonies.....
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BeastW hmmm... on the timeline of the great War the USSR and US entered the war within a couple months of each other. Without US support in the form.of Irplanes, tanks, trucks, artillery, ships, aviation fuel, food let alone financial support,, etc the sovs are defeated in 1942. Add to that the need for a diversion of German forces in 1943 to France, North Africa, Sicily, Italy the critical sov summer offensives of 43 and 44 dont happen. Add to that that by late 1945 the sovs, their population and economy were largely spent even after being propped up by the west. i don't seem to recall the massive sov army landing on Honshu. When did that happen? To invade the first of the Sakhalin Islands they had to borrow the US Navys LSTs and other landing craft and tanks and personnel to that island which was a short skip and a jump from the soviet mainland. Then they did not give those ships back until 1952. The US staged unprecedented amphibious and airborne invasions the like of which the sovs bungled when attempting their own versions.
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BeastW would be more fair to say Hollywood reflects an aspirational version of America. What does your country reflect?
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@tomlyons8440 sadly you really don't know that because there is zero evidence of the arms sale story, and much evidence disproving it. A more plausible reason is that Villa wanted to keep his fractious army of conscripts together by using his tactic employed previously at Hermosillo. Promise his sodados they could thieve and rape and murder once they have arrived on their objective. The villistas were in the process of doing just that when they got mowed down by the machine gun platoon.
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@shahnazkausar9646 of?
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@truthministries77 yeah, like the parts of Villa promising his bandidos that they could rape, thieve, and murder the residents of Hermosillo to encourage them in their attack. But then again the Mexican public school service probably doesn't teach that.
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@truthministries77 what justification is needed to thump a batch of thieving, murdering, rapists like the Villistas?
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@truthministries77 such as? I have reviewed the daily logs of the 13th Cavalry that were compiled each day by the staff duty officer from the time along the border. The Villistas could neither read nor right and did not show much inclination in the first place. So which side has the better paper trail?
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@voa23 are you talking of the history of the Plymouth colony? In that case it is essentially true. In fact the local tribe put the settlers on land that had been fallow due to disease wiping out the tribe that had been there prior to their arrival. Helps to study the history mon frer.
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@pavan923 more likely in keeping with his past history of attacks at Namiquipa, Agua Prieta, and Hermosillo he was using the attack on what he considered a lightly defended but likely lucrative target to solidify his control of his army. This theoretically would allow his troops to loot the town and especially the bank and the mayhem would also solidify his control. But like Hermosillo and Agua Prieta it did not work out that way. He never learned.....
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@fLowMage21 they are in hard copy at the national archives in Washington DC. You can read them in person, but will have to wear the cotton gloves to protest them from skin oils.
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@fLowMage21 still alive and kicking
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@gerardoresendiz6731 a more likely reason was he thought Columbus was a target that offered easy pickings to feed and pay his 500 man band of Villastas. He had no source of money to "pay" his troops or fund their logistics. The stores, bank, and hotel offered rich pickings. The military camp offered his troops remounts of well fed horses . And since he thought only a skeleton crew defended it they would brush them aside and take what they wanted. This fits Villas bandit pattern where he offered his troops the opportunity to rape pillage and murder following an attack that he had established in Namiquipa, hermosillo, Agua Prieta etc. This is a far.more likely rationale than some theoretical desire to claim coup on the US for past transgressions.
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@Chicano_pistolero yeah? How many pallets of 7.62mm x 39mm did you steal and sell online?
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@Chicano_pistolero I ask about the 7.62mm x 39mm ammo because like the 7.62mm x 39mm ammo which rhe US army does not use nor stockpile, the Villistas used 30-30 Winchester for lever action rifles. Likewise the US army did not stockpile nor use .30-30 Winchester ammunition. This US soldiers would not have access to ammunition to feed the Villistas lever action rifles. At the time the US Army used 30-06 ammunition for their Springfield and Enfield rifles. So the answer is the Army cannot have had soldiers supplying Villa.
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@Chicano_pistolero so, the theory goes that the soldiers sold ammunition from supposed army stockpiles, but substituted ammunition that had no powder in them. If I were to go to you in your national guard unit and said " hey Ocala, I need you to steal 7.62mm x 39mm from your national guard stockpile and sell it to villa, could you have done it? Next question is that the need for 30-30 Winchester would have been at a minimum 3 truck loads or 6.pallets. Could you have gotten that much 7.62mm x 39mm to sell to villa from your guard unit? Nor could the 13th Cavalry circa 1916.....
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@Chicano_pistolero the Mexican folk lore of the ammunition is NOT that the soldiers sold Villa hot ammunition that caused a compromise in the Winchesters, rather the common campfire story is that the soldiers sold villa 30-30 Winchester ammunition that had saw dust instead of propellant. 1.) If Villa purchased ammunition without test firing random lots of the ammunition then he was a moron. 2.) If villa had purchased the ammunition and discovered the fault in the ammunition and paid for it anyway he is a doubly a moron. 3.) Resource material from the University of Texas system actually tracked Villas ammunition purchases and all of them that are recorded occurred at the eastern Texas border with Mexico. These purchases were made from contract companies in San Antonio and were delivered on schedule. I scoured that listing looking for any purchases in New Mexico and Arizona and there were no e. The stories involving ammunition purchased from either the ravel store or the 13th Cavalry are apocryphal at best.
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@Chicano_pistolero my family history is similar. My family ran a series of stores in southern New Mexico territory starting in the 1870s and moved about the southwest finally including me here in sight of the border in Cochise County. MY grandfather who was born in El Paso set up tents for the Army as a teen in El Paso during the punitive expedition and his older brother served a a farrier for the Cavalry from then until after World War I. I myself served as an instructor for officer Basic Course lieutenants and part of the duty was to do terrain walks explaining the battles from Picacho Pass in the west to the Mexican Civil Wars in the east. Part of the training was to do a "ride" of the Columbus battlefield and discuss what led up to it, what occurred, and what happened afterwards. The US side has much in the way of primary source material to refer to in preparation for those events. Sadly the Mexican side has almost nothing to refer to other than testimony in the Deming and Silver City courts, and witness testimony of the kidnapped Mormon woman who was present on horseback through it all until the Villistas unraveled and fled. In the years following the raid on Columbus many apocryphal stories appeared without any basis of fact from the Mexican side that largely try to explain in larger meme what the villista goal was. None of it has any basis to it. I have had people say that their grandfather was on the raid and helped hang hundreds of US Soldiers from the trees in Puerto Palomas. This is of course comical as there was a full accounting of US Losses from the raid which numbered roughly a dozen, and there were no trees in Puerto Palomas then. Its also interesting that much like families in the US who all seem to have someone who claims to have been a Navy Seal, every family in Northern Mexico has someone who claims they were on the Columbus Raid. Amazing when you consider that of the 500 raiders who started, by the end of the day there was roughly 345 left. Six months later that was whittled down to less than 100. But the camp fire stories got passed down and that is what passes for fact south of the border. I recommend a book called "The General and the Jaguar" which does an excellent job laying out what is known about the raid itself.
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@hectorcornejo1468 actually we have pretty good data reference what occurred and motivations. Best example was the interviews with Maud Wright who was the Mormon woman kidnapped 9bdays before in a raid on a Mormon Colonia in Mexico and abandoned at Cootes Hill outside of Columbus when the Villistas fled in panic. Her testimony was that Villa spoke of the raid as a way to force Germany to support the Villistas. She also spoke of the desire to sack the town to replenish villas coffers. We have the logs and after action reviews of the 13th Cavalry that paint a fairly decent picture of the battle itself and the pursuit to the border. I recommend the book "The General and the Jaguar".
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@hectorcornejo1468 There is a total lack of written logs, testimony, or journals from the Villista side of the argument. Likely because of the nature of the Villista army itself that was not trained per se. What is available is Maud Wrights interviews, and also the testimony of the Villistas captured immediately following the raid who were tried in the Deming Court. A second group of Vilistas were similarly captured later in the campaign and likewise tried in a Silver City Court. Largely those three sources concur with each other and provide a pretty good accounting of what happened. It seems every family in Chihuahua has a grand pappy who was on the raid who told the grand son by a campfire of his deeds during the raid, but 99% of it is crap when compared with known facts. For instance, it seems common lore in Chichuahua is that Villa purchased ammunition from the Ravel Brothers store in Columbus, a place he was not known to go to before, nor have any dealings with previously. Common records from U of T archives show his previous ammunition purchases were made from contractors in San Antonio who provided the ammunition at Rio Grande crossings south of San Antonio where the contractors were from. thus, a more plausible reason for selecting Columbus was he thought it was ripe for the picking since he believed the 13th Cavalry was only 30 or so soldiers the night he attacked. He gave guidance to attack, the hotel, store, bank and the corrals holding the cavalry horses.
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@hectorcornejo1468 Do you have proof that the Villistas in the Silver City and Deming Jails were tortured or otherwise coerced? It amazes me that pwople south of the border are willing to write off legal testimony in a legal court. But totally willing to believe great grandpa Pedro when he says that space aliens attacked the cavalry in support of the Villistas....... Of course old Pedro was 5 years old in 1916-17.
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@hectorcornejo1468 2AD and 1CD vet here from over 24 years of service prior to retirement to my family ranch here in AZ. I served as a history instructor for a bit and used to focus on the actions here around the southwest. One thing I learned is something that is written down beats campfire stories.
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@hectorcornejo1468 in history it is proven, available documentation trumps hearsay. That is an absolute. It is why so much is known of the waffen SS in WWII, they were documenting fanatics.
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@hectorcornejo1468 please provide an instance where documented history was disproven by a campfire oral history.
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@hectorcornejo1468 so, because you state SOME historical facts have been proven untrue, then all history is in jeopardy?
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@hectorcornejo1468 you are right. The Roman's settled Antarctica, the Peruvians landed at Normandy in 1944. And Mexicos capital city is Oslo.
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@hectorcornejo1468 it illustrates your absurd point perfectly.
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@hectorcornejo1468 And the absurd claims used in the popular Mexican verbal history of: 1.) Villa captured US airplanes by having his troops dress as Federal troops. 2.) Villa eluded US troops by having his horses shod backwards. 3.) The US Army sold Villa ammunition that was filled with sawdust. 4.) The Ravenel Brothers sold him similar ammunition. 5.) Hundreds of US troops were hanged from the trees in La Palomas by Villistas victorious in their Columbus Attack. 6.) Villa suffered 0 casualties in his Attack. 7.) Villa ordered his troops to cut off the ears of the US troops after they were captured In Columbus. 8.) Everybody in Chihuahua seems to have a great grandfather who was in on the attack at Columbus, and they all seem to have survived, lived to old age, and covered themselves in glory (Stolen Valor anyone?) These Dont seem to draw any fire? Talk about revisionist history as well as absurdist history.
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@hectorcornejo1468 the extremes magnify the fallacy of your position. Accurate telling of History is usually not debatable . Lately it has become fashionable in academe to say everything is fungible, but that is simply rot. For instance do you know of anyone who disputes the fact that as part of Operation Market Garden, airborne forces were dropped into The Netherlands on 17 Sept 1944? Would you deny that Henry Ford produced automobiles? That Arizona was made a state in 1912? It would be intersting for you to take a contrary position, and then be forced to defend it. Regarding my background. In fact I got a minor in History. The army saw fit to have me instruct military history blocks of instruction to young officers. Good enough?
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@labcoat_0 when an organization has a wealth of documentary evidence in the form of aar's, staff duty logs, trial testimony etc, then it defeats some campfire stories told 50 years after the events which have no similar backing. It is "bringing receipts" as it were.
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@labcoat_0 you one of those guys who thinks aliens killed JFK and Apollo 11 was in a Burbank Soundstage?
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@collllroossk thanks much for your observations. I agree that the comments boards often take on a "wish it were so" on this subject matter.
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Yeah. By then the Mexicans will have stories saying Pancho was the first to walk on the moon and touch down in the Marianas Trench.
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@curio8093 Obsessed? Would not characterize it as such, but will explain my interest as: 1.) My family has roots in the southwest border area extending back to the 1870's. In fact my paternal grandfather had stories involving setting up tents for the army during the build up to the punative expedition at the age of ten to make some small amounts of cash for his family. 2.) As a young captain I was tasked to do terrain walks for even younger officers which caused me to have to research the Raid on Columbus in order to teach the lessons learned in the 1916 time frame. 3.) My research taught me that the facts of the situation were not taught south of the border and instead a hagiography of the supposed great Pancho Villa had taken root. 4.) Like other similar hagiographies of patently evil men, they must be confronted with the truth or we don't learn from history which to those of us historians is anathema. Got to fight it. 5.) Likewise I also fight against similar crimes against truthful history involving such evil figures such as Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, and of course Hitler amongst others. 6.) I will say my location here in the southwest and previous duties have made the personal study of the 1915 to 1920 situation here easier to accomplish. That help?
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@orlandomorales2033 so telling the truth about the thug and murderer Villa is now equated to hatred of Mexican people? Wow.......
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@orlandomorales2033 talking Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Would you have preferred Operation Downfall and its attendant casualty estimates of several Million Japanese civilian casualties on Honshu alone?
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@darthchingaso3613 name an incident where the US lined up native Americans, took there possessions. The executed them via firing squad
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@Reivaj L my particular part was purchased....
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@natalialuisdevaldivia1632 specifically what invaders are we speaking of?
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@dwightchaos9449 Bull.... I have seen war. I have a 24 year career as an officer prior to retiring. I have been deployed to war zones enough. And I can tell you your statement that everyone acts evilly is bull.... As I said before can you find evidence Villas three nemesis i listed did the evil actions i listed? They did not. Villa was unusually evil.
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@theguythatcoment please, give me a grid to the mass graves of the Cherokee nation from, oh let's say 1918 to 1926. You say a genocide occurred then. I will hold you to it.
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@theguythatcoment looks like you can't give me a grid to those mass graves of the Cherokee nation that occurred after 1918. So, we will broaden it for you. Now we will accept mass graves from 1910 until now.
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@colonelvonmincher3543 Interesting. Have you ever been to the Wounded Knee Battlefield? I have. Impossible to claim the Miniconjou were lined up, had their pockets rifled through for valuables and then summarily executed as Villa routinely did. Instead they were in the process of being disarmed by a very wary 7th Cavalry who 14 years earlier were decimated by these exact same tribesmen. When Black Coyote refused to turn over his weapon and fired it became an all out free for all. The 7th Cavalry had deployed in a formation in a half moon around the Indians and had fire superiority, but still managed to lose 25 soldiers out right killed and several more died of wounds . This is not on par with the Villistas atrocities as recorded.
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@darthchingaso3613 i have done historical staff rides on much of the Indian wars: Little Big Horn, Rosebud, Wounded Knee, The Washita, Minnesota Massacre, Killdeer Mountains, Apache Pass, just to name a few. In no case do I recall the US Army lining up men, women, and children - Rifling through their possessions. And then killing them by firing squad. While Indian families were occasionally killed in the midst of combat actions, it was not done in any way near the savagery of Pancho Villa and his murderous thugs.
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@darthchingaso3613 No, but neither was racism against any other ethnic Group. For instance, did you know that Louis Riel led a murderous rampage against white Europeans by the Metis? Give it a read sometime. People think the history of the Manitoba/North Dakota border area was always peaceful....
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@darthchingaso3613 and again I state at which point were innocent civilians lined up at the boarding school, had their pockets rifled through to steal valuables? And then executed by firing squad?
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@redemption882 didn't need to. After the raid and Punitive Expedition, villas 500 man force was attritted to below 150 surviving members scattered about Chihuahua. Pancho himself was relegated to hiding under the beds of Southern Chihuahua. Really says something about the Mexican federal army that when the US departed for Europe they were not able to whack what was left of old Pancho. This despite outnumbering what was left of his band by a factor of 100?
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Mayan Empire Nonsense. Following his debacle at Hermosillo, Villa in the following year thought he would move through the northern Mexico area trying to live off the land by raping, murder, and theft from those he thought could not hurt him. As he moved, as was his usual pattern, he press ganged farm workers into his bandidos. Even so his force tha arrived in Columbus numbered five hundred strong. The next day after the ill advised raid with its shockingly high casualty rate, he had 326 survivors fleeing south to hide from a possible persuer. Within 4 months the US Army had further attritted that force to a maximum of 156 scattered about Southern Chihuahua. VILLA himself was hiding under every bed he could find as he fled south. After coming out from under the bed following the US Army departing for France. VILLA resumed his practice of conscription of poor farm workers into his force to try and reestablish some form of power. And of course he took the ultimate pay off in the form of his own hacienda(very Mexican) prior to Obregon wracking him ala Sonny Corleone from the God father. Part 1. And this is something to be proud of?
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Please provide proof of this.
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And he spent their little conscripted lives like water in mounted attacks against entrenched enemies with barbed wire and machine guns. But he didn't care, he would simply drag replacements in the form of conscripted soldados off the next hacienda he came to. Life was cheap in Mexico back then.
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@maurovillarreal2037 sure they changed the president of Mexico. And they got a communist guy who led the repression of the cristeros, hanging thousands of them from telephone poles for their faiths. I have a theory that baked into Mexicos cultural DNA is an inherent need for a massive blood letting every 20-30 years. It is probably born of a cultural mother of Aztec ritual sacrifice mixed with a cultural father of Spanish exploitation Colony practices. Thus the common man expects to be ripped off from the side that is the Spanish influence, and massacred in whole job lots by the Aztec side of the culture.
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@maurovillarreal2037 and if Mexico stopped trafficking it would improve the situation markedly. I rather enjoyed the debate. As far as the racial problem it is largely overblown, and done so by the poverty pimps and race hustlers who seek to use our differences to build factional strength. But in reality their efforts to use it grow weaker each year. Where I am, the worst thing you can call someone is a racist. That is indicative of where we now are as a country...
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@maurovillarreal2037 he was a murderous thug long before he became a self serving, So called revolutionary. Poverty had nothing to do with it.....
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@maurovillarreal2037 i am confused by your question marks. Are you asking?
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@maurovillarreal2037 The key is cultural and stems from which type of colony was instated. Mexico = Exploitation Colony where anything of value was sent back to Spain with no thought to actual value in colonizing. US = farm colony where population was designed to have a self sustaining populous, often religiously based. Exploitation Colonies, especially former Spanish ones to this day are brutal, graft ridden hell holes where international norms are not followed. Farm colonies were more successful at providing mores that conform to what is considered normal. And by the way, poor people are insulted when you insinuate the are more likely to commit crimes.
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@maurovillarreal2037 poverty has nothing to do with violence. Poorest places in America (pine ridge, Devils lake. Johnstown etc) have virtually no crime. What does cause crime is the dissolution of the family unit. Boys raised in two parent hoiseholds are far more likely to not commit crime, and move out of poverty swiftly. Racial problems, as said before are marginal and only being used by one side of a social/political debate as a manner to hide actual party intentions.
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@maurovillarreal2037 yeah, more to the story like his mass rapes in Namiquipa, frequent murders of innocents, and constant thievery. Look, I can say Jesse James and Alphonso Capone were very bad people who needed to assume room temperature far earlier than they did. Why can't you admit that about old Pancho? I guess Mexico has not matured enough to look at subject matter honestly.
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@maurovillarreal2037 NONSENSE! he was just like Capone and James. He was seeking a bigger piece of the pie. When he "retired" he moved into a mud hut with his wife, and dismissed all his retainers, right? Nope.... Hacienda, with a coterie of retainers to keep up the thievery. After all, taking valuables all by himself was too small scale.
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@maurovillarreal2037 Mexico has a larger racial poblems than the US. It is just not advertised as much. Dirty little secret is that regardless of all leftist machininations, the US is about a racially neutral as any nation on the planet. The worst thing you can say about someone in the US is to call them racist. Fight is on then. Mexico? Not so much. The Indians were massacred just as much, the escaped African slaves were treated just about as poorly. Same with asians. And Europeans are also treated poorly if they do not have enough supposed native blood in them. Want to know why Trump does so well? It is because he fights back when his followers are called racists. Romney wouldn't, nor McCain, nor even the Bushes. They wouldn't fight the accusation of their followers so the followers felt unnappreciated. And they didn't vote. McClellans all of them. Trump is a Grant. At least he fights.
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@maurovillarreal2037 it was a great event. Showed a democrat politician who would be quite at home in the graft of Mexico versus a counter puncher who will fight for his supporters.
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@maurovillarreal2037 prove it please. 1.)Harassed women. 2.) Discriminated 3.) Crazy 4.)covid 5.) Russia. 6.) Dividing the country.
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@maurovillarreal2037 oh, I know of our challenges with socialism/communism and all of its variants (green party etc) And we are working to eliminate them. Can Mexico say the same of the cartels?
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@maurovillarreal2037 i am not the one who thinks known thug, murderous rapist Doroteo "Pancho Villa" Arongo is a hero.
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@maurovillarreal2037 what?
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@maurovillarreal2037 agreed. Sad you can't admit old pancho does not deserve to be considered a hero.
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@maurovillarreal2037 well, its up to you to get thr truth out. It's either that or Mexico will never advance to respectability...
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@maurovillarreal2037 sure, just make sure everyone down south knows Villa was a thieving murderous thug. That's the start.
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@maurovillarreal2037 how would he be a traitor? Please be clear.
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@maurovillarreal2037 so the brits should put Jack the Ripper on their money? The Germans put Hermann Georing? We should put John Wayne Gacy?
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@maurovillarreal2037 1. The GM jobs in Detroit were moved to Georgia and Tennessee were the business climate was less union impacted. 2.) The money was allocated to Puerto Rico, but sadly much like Mexico the graft ridden climate of all former Spanish exploitation colonies insured the funds were ripped off by the political leadership of Puerto Rico. In fact they are still finding where the pols in Puerto Rico tried to hide the money as of now. PUERTO Rico, while not as bad as Mexico Makes the South side of Chicago look positively virtuous. 3.) The Coronavirus is not as bad as the press has made it out to be. In fact for normalized population in the US it has a 99.9% survival rate. In fact it was the desired who sought to stop him from the earliest actions including the travel ban by calling him a racist for seeking it. 4.) The coverage of the virus HAS been largely free Nd designed for political actions by the left and their hand maidens in the press. 5.) The China trade issue is the first time we have actually sought fair trade with the chicoms and the soy issue lasted three weeks prior to the trade agreements. Biden, the chosen Manchuria candidate will seek to go back to the way things were when all manufacturing jobs fled to communist China. He is OWNED BY THE CHICOMA NOW. 6.) The covid stimulus as currently passed does virtually nothing for US citizens, while doubling or tripling payouts to illegal aliens, and funding leftists programs around the world. Almost nothing in that pork laden bill is designed to alleviate US suffering. All the dems have tondo is remove the foreign spending and the 1800 dollar credit for illegals and he will sign it into law. Probably would jack up the 600 dollars to 1000 dollars per taxpayer for it. 8.) He did nothing to divide the country. It was the scum on the left who sought to divide the country along.racial lines. They will not be forgiven. Got more? Bring it on.
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@maurovillarreal2037 denying what specifically?
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@maurovillarreal2037 well, a phrase like that is impossible to even debate as it has no meaning.
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Nonsense. I trust it because I know the process under which it is created. In jobs I held in my military career I was trusted to capture the accounts of what happened and ensure it was accurately logged down. Unit daily journal entries, after action reviews, reports to higher all had to be accurate depictions of what had actually happened and what the current situation was. Failure to accurately depict that information was worthy of relief for cause or even a court martial. It would guarantee the end of your career in any case. As a history instructor I had access to these products from the 13th Cavalry with your journals, AAR's, etc. Those contemporaneous accounts were kept for historical purposes and are the best historical account of the situation back then. Also, the contemporaneous accounts provided by local, national, and international news reportin g totally backs up those military journal entries. The only thing that does not jibe with those written accounts are the stories told by an old man around a Mexican campfire who legend says was at Columbus simply because he is one of 5000 old men who claim to have been one of the 300+ Mexican survivors of the fiasco. These apocryphal campfire stories if the wily Pancho are what are unbelievable. Need more?
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@manormanman7092 what have I cited that stems from word of mouth? Even the verbal testimony of the captured Villistas tried in the Deming and Silver City courts must be considered written testimony as it was subjected to cross examination on the site as well as the testimony of the Villistas themselves. The other verbal evidence that I can think of comes from the your Mormon woman kidnapped off the Colonia who was tied to a horse and forced to accompany Villa to Columbus. She was interviewed immediately after she was abandoned by the fleeing Villistas who fled from the debacle that was the Columbus raid. The information she provided was copied down on the spot and preserved. No such information exists from the Villista perspective because the Villistas had no burning desire to preserve the history. And things have not changed much since in Mexico.
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@maurovillarreal2037 yeah? Tell me one thing in a daily sitrep, after action Review, intelligence summary, or intelligence Report from two months on either side of the Columbus Raid that was knowingly fraudulent. As far as Villa not wanting journalists around, that is simply because having coverage of things like the Mormon Colonia murders, the Durango train murders, mass rapes at Namiquipa, failed mass rapes at Hermosillo, and bone headed frontal mounted attacks into fixed emplaced machine gun covered wired trenches. Imagine if the press had covered it better, a normal man would worry about his conscripted soldados hanging a 30-30 round in his back..... But then again his army couldn't read.
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@maurovillarreal2037 1. Yep, the court records of the trials at both Deming and Silver City of the Viilistas captured at Columbus and during the following months are a prime source of information. 2. Regarding the wealth of the victims, do you really consider the farmers in the Colonia or the residents of the hotel and residents at Columbus to be rich?
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@maurovillarreal2037 also, being that the attack was in 1916, a baby born during the attack would be 105 years old. No way an infant was a Villista back then.
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@maurovillarreal2037 so a kid of 110 today was a five year old Winchester toting revolutionary in 1916? Now that is hard core......
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@maurovillarreal2037 and you will never find a villista telling his grandkids "hey, I took part in the great rape of Namiquipa" or, "yeah that was me as the guy on the end of the firing squad who shot the civilian engineers on the train from Durango, in fact here is the pocket watch I robbed from the really scared looking guy before we shot him." Instead you get mostly apocryphal stories of a supposed peoples revolution with the great Pancho Villa.... But the documented history tells us what really happened... Sadly with graft being the major goal the true history has to come back to Mexico from outside.
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@maurovillarreal2037 but we depend on the actual research to teach us the history of those two wars rather than depend solely on word of mouth. You know the actual history of the marine unit that raised the flag on Mount suribachi due to the unit records and histories in the national archives. The gentleman you met can have his claims verified by referencing him against company rosters and casualty rolls. In fact. Us units keep such accurate records you can usually determine location and cause of death or wounds for the casualties. On the other hand Villas officers rarely knew the names of the conscripted cattle the threw at the enemy, and cared nothing for keeping records of anything besides the loot taken. They needed that in order to split the spoils...
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@maurovillarreal2037 do you think President Wilson even took note of it? Or do you expect that a brutal thug like Villa would have expected him to? Villa expected all to think as he did and he rarely noted his own losses in suicidal charges of his cannon fodder. the real reason villa attacked the train was to give his recently conscripted band of soldados a lesson in "lead or gold". The lesson was "here, have the plunder from these engineers (gold). And remember that if you turn on me or try to defect you will be lined up and shot (lead)" It also allowed him to put them on the same complicit moral plain . A thug is a thug.... Similarly he had his soldados execute the rape of namiquipa to get back at one of his senior officers who's name escapes me defected. Namiquipa was his hometown and where his family was. Like I said, a thug is a thug.
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@maurovillarreal2037 villa was in this game for personal gain. Nothing more or less. He was even able to be bought out of it with a hacienda in the end.
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@maurovillarreal2037 much like the Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines whom Villa closely mirrors, the money given to the poor was simply purchasing credit for theft of supplies and conscripted poor soldados which he dragged off the haciendas (read the testimony of the captured soldados in the Deming court). Essentially it was a large scale logistics effort. He cared about the poor only as long as they could provide him a bag of rice or horse fodder down the way.
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@maurovillarreal2037 once again I encourage you to study the Abu Sayyid of the Philippines. The technique in question is called "making the grass grow." Smart terrorist groups realize that the economics of the area they operate in directly impacts their ability to feed their troops. Simply stealing everything including the seed corn feeds your terrorist band for now, but what about next season? Stupid terrorists eat everything they can take from the locals, but they don't last (nor do the locals they take it from, see Somalia for example.) It's a delicate balance of only taxing what is really available for now versus feeding in three months. I have seen terrorist groups who spend their ransom payment money paying local merchants for past debts in order to allow for things like sacks of rice and flour to re enter the economy. They do not do this out of altruism, but out of personal economics. And Villa is a perfect example. A man willing to line up unnocents for theft, rape, and murder is not one to operate from altruism. Why was old Pancho whacked ala Sonny from The Godfather? Because his opponents suspected he was reimerging from Chihuahua to get back into operations. This ain't George Washington we are talking about....
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@maurovillarreal2037 ...and Mussolini made the trains run on time. ..
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@maurovillarreal2037 please name one country that has not allowed slavery in past 250 years.
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@maurovillarreal2037 totally agree. But I don't recall George Washington lining civilian Tories up, rifling their pockets, and shooting them. Only execution I can recall that he ordered was of Major Andre who was caught receiving the plans of the fortifications at West Point from the traitorous Benedict Arnold. Andre was of course caught wearing civilian clothes which marked him a spy. Maybe you can help me with this.....
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@maurovillarreal2037 name a country that did not have slaves at some point. Or fought battles of territorial expansion. Regarding the attacks while people were sleeping. Please research Mad Anthony Wayne at stony point. Let me know what you find. Shot people in back? I call back to the classic western: "You shot that man in the back..." "His back was to me..."
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@maurovillarreal2037 hmmmmmmmm.... Genocide? Give it a shot. ..
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@maurovillarreal2037 sort of like the genocide of the apache in Mexico?
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@maurovillarreal2037 are you asserting that the US based Apache have been wiped out like the Mexican bands? That will surprise a couple of my friends here in Cochise County who are pretty sure they are alive. Regarding the comment about this part.of the US that used to be Mexico..... yep, Mexico needed graft money to spread around so they sold my particular part of territory to the US since they saw no long term value in it. Now they are envious of what we have done with it.
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@maurovillarreal2037 except that the Mexicans actually waged war on the tribes in the Sonora and Chihuahua area, including tribes that were not apache. Reference buffalo, while Buffalo was on the menu, it was not as integral to the Apache as it was the plains Indians (Cheyenne, Sioux, Comanche etc)due to the tribes living in the sky Islands where deer and antelope were more plentiful.
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@maurovillarreal2037 Being that the Apache were nomadic athapaskan people, they started in Alberta and over the course of 400 years moved down the rockies to Cochise and Graham Counties and the mogollon rim areas. In those moves they fought everyone(Crow,.Blackfoot, Ute, Pueblo, Zuni, Navaho, yaqui) enroute (Think the movie The Warriors from 1979.) If you research noted Warriors from.Apache history you will see they were nearly wiped out by the Mexicans. A case can be made that life in Mexico was tougher than on US reservations. Kidnapping of women and children was a pretty universal as pect of native American culture. As was slavery of the captured males.
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@maurovillarreal2037 the key difference between the Spanish and English efforts were the purpose of the colonies themselves. The Spanish used a colonial format called "exploitation colonies" which did specifically that. Find goods or other wealth and ship it home to spain (gold, silver, etc) No thought to improve and make permanent a colony, just keep finding the valuables and send it home. Graft of the first order. The English on the other hand used the Farm Colony paradigm where the intent was to come to stay irrespective of gold and silver and serve as a market for for good from England to be traded. Those two specific differences in style of colonizing directly impact how the US and Mexico are set up and operate today.
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@maurovillarreal2037 the exploitation phase of the English colonization effort ended shortly after the founding of the Jamestown colony when the few dandies who had embarked on the ships to search for gold where forced by starvation to work in the fields. The largely religious colonists who came as part of the English colonization desired the farm colony model following Jamestown so that is what took root.
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@maurovillarreal2037 killed off all the native Americans? This Will be news to my cousins who are native Americans. I must tell them next time I am on the phone with them....
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@gg-uq6zm why cant the socialist paradise of Venezuela manufacture it's own medicine? Where in Yemen has the US massacre Civilians. Be precise please.
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maria chavez I did not know Angel's lined up civilians and shot them by firing squad. I guess that is s very Mexican angel....
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@anthonyfootball80 Wow! You have certainly had the Maoist "therapy." Illegal taxes? Medical murder? Executing civilians? Please prove all three.
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@gg-uq6zm why dont the Venezuelans pull a Nicolae Ceausescu on Maduro? That's the goal, right?
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@ToeMoss0612 decentralized weapon production had been achieved in Japan. There remained no real Civilian areas. The nature of the two nuclear weapons missions were not markedly different than other missions flown in Germany and japan.
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@Pacific-qu7en please prove this.
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maria chavez He stacked them like cordwood. Villa was a violent murderous thieving thug. He drafted uneducated farmworkers into his band and used them like cattle. Almost soviet in style. Key attribute was they could perform as firing squads. Yeah, a prince of a guy....
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John D Force feeds you democracy? Please explain.
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@vivavilla1342 what was the total population of non native american people in the area ceded to the U S as part of the treaty of Guadelupe Hidalgo? How many were deported following the treaty? By the way, if you asked those same people today they would undoubtedly tell you "thank God the US took over California, new mexico, arizona and texas. Oh, by the way. I live in the Gadsden Purchase area that Mexico was eager to get rid of. It's now worth more than Mexico itself.
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Pancho Villa. Leader of Mexican Graft. Whi needs a friendly government when you can lead a rein of terror instead.
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@steerwheelholder6060 Following Villas defeat at Agua Prieta he began losing his forcibly conscripted force as he moved first to Naco and then south and west to Hemosillo. In order to keep what was left of his dwindling force from deserting him, he promised the remainder of his force that the could loot, murder, and rape their way through the hermosillo as they desired. The attack started off well, until his bandidos lost interest in fighting and took him up on his bargain to steal, rape and murder. The opposing force took advantage of this and staged a counter attack - ejecting Villas troops from the city with heavy casualties. Essentially a forerunner to his disaster at Columbus.... So your comments about him being a hero to the common man in Mexico illuminates that life is not so sacred down there.
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Imgladandrew gillumisnotmykang386 and like old Jesse James, Pancho only did the Robin Hood act to further his own cause. Both of them liked the positive press, but liked money and power more....
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