Comments by "Horatio82" (@horatio8213) on "TIKhistory"
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@kingslayer2981 For your consideration, I just said that not all "damned soldiers" were heros. Many of them were acting like bandits, but that was marginal number. In comaprition communist kill milions of innocent peoples.
And I not claim that your ancestors didn't suffer from that wrong actions of this people .But in real numbers most of them fight against Germans and Soviets. Both regimes named them all as bandits, but Soviets many times use provocation to blame them for attrocieties that was made by NKVD. Even Solzenicyn in his works wrote about that. That actions were soviet speciality for the rest of the war. The same tatcic was used by local polish communist special forces to blame opposition for terror attacks. After that they gain support from local population to destroy anticommunist partisants. There is many relation about soviet soldier posing as a opposing forces. That was very popular method. If you have any doubs read about soviet terrorist operation against Poland after the end of war in 1921 and later. Diversion, killing polish citizens and civil servants. Even in peace time soviet army and special forces attacks polish border! Read about place Stolpce and what happen there in 1924. The same situation take place ta soviet-finish border. Both countries create special border units to stop that.
In case of my family, both german and soviet occupation were tragedy, but most wrongdoing we suffer from UPA, only my grandmother survive from her family. She never want to spoke about that tragedy. Also she never talk bad about all Ukrainian, but she can't stand calling UPA as a heros.
If you try compare situation people living insde and outside USSR and you claim that life in USSR were better, just don't know nothing about history or just lie. Even with stiupid polish asimilation ploitics no one in Poland murder bielarusian inteligence. From 1927 bielarusian language was taught in local schools. Just before war that change for worse and that was mistake of polish goverment. Still noone force to ban that language in Poland between 1918-1939. Poland maybe was harsh place to build national culture, but USSR was much more worse.
Officialy in USSR Bielarusian people have rights to own cullture. But in reality bielarusian inteligence was killed by soviets or run to West, russian was only language you can use. No independent culture can be created in Bielarus under soviet rule. I don't know what is official history in Bielarus today, but Soviets destroy for years bielarusian culture and even today Russian claims that Bielarus is not real independent nation and country.
But biggest misunderstanding is in your claims about sovietization in connection with russification. Official all nations were equal part of USSR, but in reality new conquered territories were heavly and mostly colonizated by Russian. Local nations were deported in mass to other parts of USSR. You can see that in Poland (West Bielarus and Ukraine) after 17.09.1939. and in Baltic States after 1940. Removing local population was connected with mass migration and most of them were ethnic Russians. That was not anyway a case of normal migration. That was central planned force relocation, just state operated ethic cleansing. Local languages were banned, georaphic names were change to russian. In fact in soviet logic all border population were potencial enemies, that was the main cause to remove them and replace them with trusted population. Population that was educated and formed in USSR. Same proces you can see in Crimea or East Prussian after WW2, in place of local population that was removed you have dislocation of USSR citizens, which most are Russian. You claim that wasn't a Stalin's plan to secure this lands. In case it was not russian nationalism, but communist useage of dominating culture and population in USSR. That also is no way blaiming Russian for tragedy of communism. They should know how they were used for Stalin's dreams of ruling the Europe. But problems of that barbaric relocation is still with us today.
Problem is that in USSR everyone was slave of communism. There were no freedome of movement, any liberties at all. USSR was just totalitarian regime, just like III Reich. I can't still understand how you can defend that evil empire.
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@peterlawler2201 If you don't belive me. Belive Hitler's words and actions. Here you have some quotes:
"Our fight is with money. Work alone will help us, not money. We must smash interest slavery. Our fight is with the races that represent money."
Speech at the hall of Zum Deutschen Reich (December 18, 1919), quoted in Thomas Weber, Becoming Hitler: The Making of a Nazi (Basic Books, 2017), p. 138. Police report of DAP meeting, SAM, DPM/6697
"Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one’s fellow man’s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income. And we were aware that in this fight we can rely on no one but our own people. We are convinced that socialism in the right sense will only be possible in nations and races that are Aryan, and there in the first place we hope for our own people and are convinced that socialism is inseparable from nationalism. "
"Why We Are Anti-Semites," August 15, 1920 speech in Munich at the Hofbräuhaus. Speech also known as "Why Are We Anti-Semites?" Translated from Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 16. Jahrg., 4. H. (Oct., 1968), pp. 390-420. Edited by Carolyn Yeager.
"Since we are socialists, we must necessarily also be antisemites because we want to fight against the very opposite: materialism and mammonism… How can you not be an antisemite, being a socialist!"
"Why We Are Anti-Semites," August 15, 1920 speech in Munich at the Hofbräuhaus. Translated from Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 16. Jahrg., 4. H. (Oct., 1968), pp. 390-420. Edited by Carolyn Yeager.
"To put it quite clearly: we have an economic programme. Point No. 13 in that programme demands the nationalisation of all public companies, in other words socialisation, or what is known here as socialism. … the basic principle of my Party’s economic programme should be made perfectly clear and that is the principle of authority… the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State; it is his duty not to misuse his possessions to the detriment of the State or the interests of his fellow countrymen. That is the overriding point. The Third Reich will always retain the right to control property owners. If you say that the bourgeoisie is tearing its hair over the question of private property, that does not affect me in the least. Does the bourgeoisie expect some consideration from me?… Today’s bourgeoisie is rotten to the core; it has no ideals any more; all it wants to do is earn money and so it does me what damage it can. The bourgeois press does me damage too and would like to consign me and my movement to the devil. "
Hitler's interview with Richard Breiting, 1931, published in Edouard Calic, ed., “First Interview with Hitler, 4 May 1931,” Secret Conversations with Hitler: The Two Newly-Discovered 1931 Interviews, New York: John Day Co., 1971, pp. 31-33. Also published under the title Unmasked: Two Confidential Interviews with Hitler in 1931, published by Chatto & Windus in 1971
"What matters is to emphasize the fundamental idea in my party's economic program clearly; the idea of authority. I want the authority; I want everyone to keep the property he has acquired for himself according to the principle: 'Benefit to the community precedes benefit to the individual.' But the state should retain supervision and each property owner should consider himself appointed by the state. It is his duty not to use his property against the interests of others among his own people. This is the crucial matter. The Third Reich will always retain its right to control the owners of property. "
In 1931, as quoted in Nazi Economics: Ideology, Theory, and Policy (1990), by Avraham Barkai, pp. 26–27
You can find more this"right-wing" stuff on wiki and other sources. I'm not dilusional about some NSDAP tactis to get support from wealthy and powerfull. Suppot to get power. The same tactic use bolsheviks before October Revolution. But say that Hitler was on right side is so far from reality as you can get . For years communist propaganda call him that. Yes, some his policy was based on right-wing ideas, but in core he act and talk about himself as socialist.
Quotes are taken from:
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Read yourself Mein Kampf, don't belive people that claim that is bad to know it. It is bad to belive that this stiupid and shallow book can make you Hitler's fan. He was evil in pure state, no deep thoughts in this weak publications. Read and understand how disconnected he was with reality with his ideology. The same problem is people quote Marx without understanding how he was wrong in his works. Th same you can see in Lenin and Stalin works, not titans but dwarfs of philosophy and intellect.
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@ВячеславСкопюк Finland was neutral before and after Winter War, USSR force bases for Red Army in Hanko and block defence pact between Sweden and Finland. Take bunch of teritories and block trade, excluding only vital trade with Germany. By the way Germany was only other source of food for Fins, take it to consideration. Also everybody knows what happen when USSR places bases in Baltic States. Only way to keep balance, was take (forced by trade embargo) german offer of laeasing the bases and tranist rights on Fininland's teritory. Second options was just waiting for next soviet attack and do nothing. Stalin was outraged because Moscov treaty didn't say anything about german presence in Finland and Fins were not a part of soviet-german arragments and do not have to any obligations to obey them . If soviet units in Finland didn't mean that Finland was soviet ally, that what logic support your claim that german units broke this neutrality? Portugal stay neutral even aften leasing bases to UK and USA on atlantic islands in WW2. The same neutral USA in 1940 and 1941 place military bases on british teritories! Do you need more examples? Fins just stay between two bloody tyrants and manage to use them against eachother.
Next false claim. Sweden didn't stay so neutral at all. At the time of invasion on Norway in 1940, Germans forced transit of materials to Narvik. The same happend after invasion on USSR in 1941. Transport from Norway goes to Finland by swedish railways! That cause power shift in swedish politics. On the other side soviet submarines also have no problem with attacking neutral swedish merchant ships.
Next point is soviet protest was based on Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, which state Finland as a part of USSR "sphere of interest". That also mean that finish goverment wasn't any part of this agrement! That was only imperial politics between Moscov and Berlin. Noone ask Fins about that! In any way they did not been obligated to do whatever Stalin and Hitler decide.
I'm not claiming that Stalin was wrong in 1941-41 preparing to strike Hitler! It is sure today that Stalin's plan in 1940-41 was attack Germany and capture or destroy romanian oilfields! Stalin taking Besarabia and Bukovina give Hitler hint of his plans! There is many more evidence of that offensive preparation. Movement and preparations of soviet units long before german deployment to Barbarossa! The biggest lie is that USSR was preparing to defence! Where is that mythical defence plan for Red Army for 1941? There is no such plan, because it was never existed. Nearly 80 years ago Red Army prepare attack on III Reich and we know the name of plan, it is MP-41! Today also we know layout of sowiet armies but we still hear about mythical defence plan that noone seen till today! I ask you where is that soviet defence plan for german invasion? Can you give me source for that plan?
The most stiupid claim you make is that when both countries (USSR and III Reich ) were enemies. Not really befor 22.06.1941. Using your logic Hanko base was enemy target for Germans! In that base was over 20 thousand of soldier and base was heavly fortified! When Soviets have base in Hanko and place large forces on finish border, Germans use economical means to put small forces in Finland. In the same time Stalin and Hitler talk about formal alliance and were cooperating in war against UK!
About bombing on Finland, USSR were not at war in this time with Fins! Soviet or Fins didn't declare it! The same "accident" happen to city in Slovakia, then part of neutral Hungary! The same day, 25 June 1941!Maybe that was soviet mistake, but i don't belive in that. Formaly Finland and Hungary were still neutral in war between USSR and III Reich! But both of this countries never have problems with other countries neutrality, like Germans invading Belgium or Stalin "helping" Baltic States. But you will claim that befor 22.06.1941. Hitler and Stalin was enemies. Yeah right. And this enemies just politly slice half of Europe together.
Final case is that Fins didn't claim or retake any teritory that wasn't finish property before 1940! They stoped on 1940's border! That was one of the many reason why Stalin didn't fully conquere Finland after 1944.
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@lukebruce5234 For simple debunking your lies:
1)That is not true. The deal Czechoslovakia had with the USSR was different. The deal was the USSR had to help militarily if France helped. The USSR in 1938 did not have a military force strong enough to fight on its own.
In this line you hide two lies. One is that soviet-chehoslovakian agrement was directed against countries like Poland and Romania. But Chehoslovakia can use that also against Germans, but need cooperation with transit of soviet forces. Still that was formal allaince and there is no notion that France was included in it. In the same time France was allied with Chehosloavakia, but they need help from UK. USSR try to use France to force Poland to open borders for Red Army, but everybody knows that was impossiable because if you let soviet troops on your territory, that mean you will go under soviet rule ( look Baltic States in 1940).
2) The Soviets cut the sale of grain once the famine began. The West boycotted the USSR so it could not use gold to trade. They had to use grain. Kulaks were persecuted because of the wide scale sabotage they engaged in when they refused to give up their property.
They have to cut sale,because there were drop in production. You can't sell grain that you don't have!
And again you blame victimes for genocide.
"Kulaks were persecuted because of the wide scale sabotage they engaged in when they refused to give up their property." That mean: we good Soviet will take all your grain, you will die or if you resist we will take all your grain and you will die. What is your logic? Jews gas themselves? Germans only provide camps?
Even in 1930' world was inform about real scale and sources of famine in USSR. You just repeat old propaganda.
3)Again you are wrong here. Ford was ideologically pro-Nazi and would even print anti-Semtic propaganda. Also Ford would donate the profit he made to the Nazi Party.
Yes Ford was antisemite, but still that not mean that he didn't build biggest factories of cars for USSR. ZiS cars are license copy of Ford products. USSR buy technology and material from around the world! You disprove nothing with that.
4)The Germans spent 213 billion (in 2000 dollars) in 1940 on their military. The USSR spent 62 billion. The British spent 100 billion.
Nice comapration, but still you forgott mention that soviet economy was created to put its production for army. Only few procents of industrial output in USSR was for civilian use, even in the peace time befor WW2/ Also you try to hide that USSR from 1930' start massive arrament production. In 1940 armies of UK and III Reich cant compete with Red Army with numbers of tanks, artilery and warplanes. Biggest lie is in simple use quotas of money, because money in communist economy are pure number. All resources, industrial power and manpower is own by state. Nice try but next fail.
5)The Soviet Union was clearly preparing for the war since it was threatened since its inception but it no way could compete with Germany in neither spending nor technology.
Next blunt lie. From 1920' and to 1933 USSR and Germany cooperate with creation of new kind of weapons and tactics. Soviets exacly knew what was in german arsenal.
If you claim that thousend sT-34 and KV-1 come from sky in 1941 i don't belive you. Compare that tanks to german Panzerkampfwagen II/III/IV. Problem was low quality of soviet production and lack in command structure after Great Purge. But what i know about soviet peacfull Red Army.
6)The problem was that the Soviets had around 20 million soldiers and that Europe was largely pro socialist at the time knowing what capitalism has done (two World Wars, the Great Depression etc). Nobody back then blamed socialism for WW2 like TIK does. The USA had nuclear bombs but it would not win the propaganda war at the time. If they started nuking cities murdering millions the people of Europe would back the USSR.
That is real pearl. Noone in democratic West want war with USSR in 1945. (Excluding Churchill that was decide to stop communis). Because evreybody just fought one with III Reich. Communism was maybe popular, but not that much you think. But even with this massive Red Army USSR was broken and can't fight with USA, UK and France. Why? Because economy in USSR can't stand new war. Middle Europe was still in turmoil and need be suppresed. And im curious how this time USSR will convince world that agressors were Western Allied? You belive in power soviet propaganda, I see power of industry that dwarf USSR economy and power of atomic bomb! RAF and US airforce wil just slaughter soviet airforce. Navies of both countries will blokade USSR and that will be the end of communism. That is way Stalin didn't try his luck in 1945. He need time to get a A-bomb.
7)That is false. The fate of Eastern Europe was sealed at Yalta. By the way the Czechs voted the communists in.
Then you admit that Stalin see in captured conutries only spolis of war and just want to create communist satelites, not real independent allies for USSR. Because you forgott that the key part in Yalta agreement was that the Soviet will obey the will of the citizens in this countries. In each of then Soviets and local communist stage "democratic election" that was in reality cover up for capturing power by communist. You wrote about election in Chehosklovakia, election with one party and all strucures of power in hands of communist. And suprise communist wins. Tha is real face of soviet democracy.
And last but not least:
Westerners commonly deny the native American genocide, the mass murder and enslavement in their many colonies and even the responsibility for wars in Iraq, Vietnam and so on.
Today everyone in world know how brutal were wars between Indians and USA (you use term genocide). Then you need to know that is understand about this part of history in the world's view. Only some your 's american counterparts try to lie about it. The same way you forgott why Americans leave Vietnam. That is all well undesrtand history in the West. If you use the same standards for USSR we can treat you with any regard and respect. But you take all respect from yourslef with one sentence. I wrote:
Even Hitler with his policy can't beat Stalin and Mao in cruelty and body count.
You respond: That is just a cold war zinger and a false one.
Cold War is long gone. Whatever you claim people saw enough evidence that put your claims in the same spot with people claiming that there were no Holocaust and Hitler didn't know nothing. You can't burried past under lies and propaganda. Communism produce biggest evil in history and killed more than enybody else. Lenin, Stalin, Mao. Pol Phot and others were mass murderes that make Hitler just a one of dictators in XX century. And not the worst one.
In regards for your blunt lies i end with hope that some day you open your eyes and learn some real history. Not short soviet version of propaganda.
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@lukebruce5234 Yes I'm Polish but what that change? Probably you will accuse me of some bias against Russia. Do you belive that I can't be objective because of that?
But only bias I got is against lies.
" I don't blame you as the Poles are the funniest falsifiers of history." I am curious what part of mine claims are false. Because I give you sources.
Most soviet tanks were operational at 22nd June 1941. No big problems in this part of Red Army.
Most T-26 and BT were armed in 45 mm cannon that could destroy every german tank. KV-1 and T-34 use 76.2 guns much more better than any german tank including Panzer III and IV. When armor of KV and T-34 were shock for Germans. 37 mm PAK 36 can't do nothing to this tanks. 50 mm guns were very rare and not always effective.
Yes soviet tanks were in some ways inferior to Panzers. But 26000 is still much more than 3700. Even if half of soviet tanks were broke you still get for times more than Germans get. Sorry but you are using old soviet exccuse to blame backwardenes as a biggest cause of soviet defet.
In reality main tanks of Wermacht was Pz II with 20 mm cannon, Pzkpfw 35 and 38 with 37 mm guns. Only Pz III and IV were modern, but this types were still smaller part of german tank forces. They even use Pz I! Armed with two MG!
"The Soviet army wasn't particularly strong in 1941."
Official soviet data from show that in numbers of soldiers, tanks, artillery, planes, trucks Red Army was better equiped than Wermaht. All that was lost in few first months of war. Because of mistakes made by Stalin and his generals.
5 millions men, 26000 tanks, how you can claim that is small and weak army.
"There is no half truth. In the late 30s the British and the Germans outspent the Soviets in military expenditures. The USSR spent a lot throughout the 30s but that is to be expected from a country which is so massive and is barely industrialized. The armed forces needed a build up and it paid off. "
Still miss the point. Soviet economy was different in many ways than any economy. Profit, payment and price are just empty word in this economy. Only goal to industralisation was creating heavy industry to produce everything what Red Army need. This process bring soviet citizens poverty and famine. Maybe you will claim that Holodomor or Great Purge are anti-soviet propaganda?
About UK and Third Reich overspending USSR. Both nations still operate in peace time economy. They must pay bills. USSR is totalitarian dictatorship where state is owner of every bit of property. Then whatever you claim USSR starve own citizens to build weapons factories, not for benefit of civilians.
UK was world wide empire with costly fleet.(First fleet i the world). In 1930's build air defence system and din't starve noone to achive that.
Germans rebuild army in twice short time that soviet regime create own forces. That is very costly proces, but still in numbers noone can compare to USSR in land forces.
"By the way the Soviet economy was larger than the one of the UK, it took the entire British Empire to get above the USSR."
You really don't know any real numbers about interwar economy. German and UK (that mean whole empire) economy were much larger than USSR. Official soviet economical data were just straight lies. After 1991 when soviet archives were open, many of USSR official claims become laughing stock to reality.
"Penal labor was normal at the time everywhere in the World. Calling it slave labor just because you don't like the USSR is stupid. "
I name it that becuse when state take your basic rights and send you to force labor that is slavery. In USSR citizens were whitout any rights. When you were late 3 times to work you were send to Gulag.
No other country in 20th century before 1939 use so much slave labor than USSR.
Do I like USSR or not, facts are facts. Soviet citizens were just slaves in own countries. Even Tsar give more rights to his subjects. How many greate projects of USSR can't exist without slaves? I think more than you can named. Soviet industry was build on bones and blood of victimes of Stalin.
"You just made that up on the spot. Given the fact Poland was allied with the British and the French it is pretty much impossible the Soviets would risk a war against the majority of European powers just to occupy You just made that up on the spot. Given the fact Poland was allied with the British and the French it is pretty much impossible the Soviets would risk a war against the majority of European powers just to occupy the most worthless part of Europe (Poland).
I will give you few evidence that you are mistaken.
1) Soviet invasion on Poland 17th September 1939 as a result of pact between Stalin and Hitler.
2) Attack on Finland the same year.
3)Anexation of Baltic States in 1940.
4)If Stalin didn't want Poland why to soviet army keep units there to 1993?
5)Stalin after WW2 captured half of Europe when he promise to allowe for democratic elections. Never happend and noone attack USSR because of that.
Main reason to help against Geramny in 1939 was to get sphere of influence in middle Europe. That was Stalin's plan, one way or another he get what he want. But to do it he sacrifise 20 milions of soviet citizens.
Again i prove to you that in 1939-41 Stalin and Hitler were in alliance.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Frontier_Treaty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks
For all that facts we have today documents from german and soviet archives. I'm sure that you will claim tha I as a Pole I invent things. But I'm sorry for you because today people can read multiply sources and discover that all your arguments are based on soviet propaganda and lies.
Fact is simple Stalin was dictator, USSR enslave and kill millions to spread communism. But as we can see that only bring fall of this sick ideas.
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