Comments by "DeoMachina" (@DeoMachina) on "Hakim"
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" Capitalism is nothing but a market democracy"
No, that's not what it means. Capitalism is when the means of production are owned by a specific class of people, who employ a seperate class of people to work the means of production. You need to understand this more than anything right now. Capitalism is not "when people trade". Otherwise, you could say that people have been capitalists for thousands of years! In which case...why didn't we have the word until relatively recently in human history? What made early economists take note 200 years ago and decide that things were changing?
"Most of what your describing cannot be attributed to capitalism as it is merely part of the human condition. War, poverty, hunger, slavery, suffering, greed all existed long before the invention of the free market and, of course, was much worse without it"
All of these things got worse after capitalism was invented.
Sure, people fought before capitalism, but under capitalism we go to war when weapons manufacturers want more sales. Lobbyists literally walk into the halls of government and argue that we should start wars. That happens and is 100% legal within capitalist nations.
Sure, people starved before capitalism, but only when there was no food. With capitalism? Millions of people starve every year despite the fact that we are overproducing food! There's literally too much food in the world! Yet people starve to death? Only in capitalism could this happen.
I could go on and on for hours if you want, but capitalism has killed far more people than even the more exaggarated socialist death toll. You think communism killed 100 million people? I think that's wrong, but that's STILL less than capitalism!
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@Wonderingax "I like markets because they require no bureaucracy,"
And yet bureaucracy exists, interesting
" they are fast, dynamic"
By what metric?
"everyone can willingly buy and sell whatever they feel like"
No, people can buy what is currently profitable and very little else.
"Mistakes on a planned economy can destroy a country, you don't have to relay on anybody with markets"
You actually do need to rely on a lot of people with markets. And this leads us to the problem with markets: They always, always crash. We can't go 20 years without the market crashing. We've tried everything, every tax rate, every regulation, and the market crashes over and over again. Thousands of people die every time it happens, many more pushed into poverty. When will you give it up?
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@Wonderingax "Well excuse me for not completely abolishing bureaucracy even tho you are talking about managing the state or some stock exchange not markets themselves, even when taking them into account you still have less which is my point."
But it continues to grow despite the market, which is my point.
"Don't you think it is easier to modernize and catch with the times when you allow private ownership"
No, I do not. And crucially, neither do the people who actually do the modernisation. Advances in technology and medicine are either directly state-funded, or depend on technology that was state-funded.
" Markets when possible always get on with the times, there's always somebody on the know, you just got to give them an incentive and thats money"
This is demonstratably false. The World Wide Web was rejected by every private company that got approached, the only reason it ever got off the ground was because CERN allowed it to be set up in an office somewhere. Electric cars? Suppressed by the motor industry about 30 years ago. Digital distribution? Private companies tried to ban it outright.
There's money to be made by getting with the times, sure. But new technology rivals the old. And private industry doesn't like rivals.
"for the state the commoner is absolutely alien,"
And you think the CEO of Amazon knows anything about what my life is like?
"Whatever is profitable is exactly what people want"
No. There are lots of things we want but can't buy. I want healthier food, I want consumer goods that aren't designed to break. Can't buy them though. The thing about supply and demand is that private companies control both of these things.
"but with planning, the plan itself is very susceptible, you need a group of perfect robot-like Technocrats."
Significant sections of the economy are already being automated with computers, central planning is literally what walmart does 24/7
"sure and they also create massive amounts of wealth"
Not for us, though. Only for the ruling class. When the economy is good, they get richer and we get poorer. When the economy is bad? They get richer and we get a LOT poorer.
"nobody should bring them down with taxes or forced collectivizations."
But price hikes and artificial scarcity is a-ok despite the millions of people it kills? That's fucked.
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@Wonderingax " When you talk about suppression of innovation, Im not so sure about it"
Ya well, I am lol. So much could be better than it is, but unless it benefits a rich guy somewhere, it'll never happen.
"but I was talking more about worldwide cultural innovations"
Okay cool, every artist I know despises the market for what it does to culture.
" I do too, maybe we should vote with our dollars to gets some"
You think I should...stop buying food until they make it better? That won't last long.
"most people don't care that much about it, thats exactly why garbage food is so omnipresent"
Do you think the sheer power of the food industry might have anything to do with this?
" JB is an alien to us, but he got there by giving the masses goods and services they wanted, not by force or some political maneuvering."
Bezos doesn't rule by force? Bezos literally killed his employees! He worked them to death! He forced them to stay at work instead of evacuating during a natural disaster! And any Amazon employee that doesn't like it has to choose between that, or homelessness! You don't think the threat of starving on the street is force?
" Also I don't know that much about Walmart's planning but it is not that simple, its way easier to let the market be, I trust it more than politicians and democracy in general."
Sure would be a shame if the market saw something terrible like say, a global pandemic and decided "hm, better kill as many people as possible!" Sure would undermine your point if something like that happened.
Remember: politicians only act in service to the market. They get elected on the promise that they will benefit the market. They exist to do what the ruling class want.
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@mottebailley4122 Burkina Faso did experience its fastest improvement in quality of life during those four years, maybe not a 'success story' but you've accidentally hit on something very important:
Whenever a poor nation implements socialism to improve the lives of people living there, imperial nations murder the leadership and install a capitalist government. It's absolutely not a coincidence that he was murdered months after calling for African nations to stop paying the debt that was forced onto them by Europe.
Burkina Faso, like many former colonies, took out massive loans while under the control of imperial superpowers. What that means is, a French citizen whose job it was to administer the colony, took out a loan from a French bank. And after independence, France still demanded the poor nations repay the loan that France forced upon them.
Do you see how it works now? This is why poor nations in Africa remain poor. Burkina Faso has substantial potential in its natural resources, but any poor nation that tries to keep this wealth for itself is invaded or bombed, or suddenly in the middle of a coup.
It doesn't matter if these nations adopt Socialism or Capitalism or anything else, they are forced to remain poor because that is what keeps other nations rich.
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