Comments by "Kameraden" (@Alte.Kameraden) on "TIKhistory"
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@jrenjrapiro817
"I know the first desire of an ideologue like yourself is to leap to insults when called out on it, but I have quoted the definition back to you. You seem unable to address that."
^ sorry but yours are not dictionary definitions, so to me meaningless. They're likely ideological definitions, but they're not OFFICIAL definitions. Yet you're accusing me of being the ideologue. Project very often?
" And again - the community. not "one community of many, picked out at random, based only on one or two traits held in common" '
^ Ironic that you're able to accidently admit there can be separate communities. That being said what you typed, that sounds a lot like Fascism. One of it's primary goals was to bring all the different social groups in society into one greater National Community. However, that still doesn't disprove a nation can make a Racial Community. Your definition of Community is not an official definition of community at least one I've ever seen.
"You're stretching the definition of socialism now, to really mean any community. So, let's bring up a fact I brought up previously. Everyone, socialists, anti-socialists, historians, ect, agree that socialism is an ideology that finds its most prevalent and important roots in at earliest the 17th century. You do, however, realize that ownership of the means of production by exclusive groups existed long before then, right? I mean, why use NK as an example, why not go whole hog and use medival england? the roman empire? hell, ancient egypt?"
I'm not stretching the definition of Socialism. Did the Roman Emperor own the Farms? The Shops? The Senate? Even in Feudalism, the Kings didn't own the blacksmiths, artisans who built the castles and cathedrals were paid and contracted to do so. A lot of people seem to have a weird view of the middle ages, Serfdoms perhaps but those were primarily exclusive to the farms. North Korea is a great example, because it is a Socialist country. Yet it's ruled by a dictatorship that morphed into a Monarchy.
And referring to that there is little difference between a Dictatorship and an Absolute Monarchy outside of one being Hereditary and the other not. But a dictatorship can become a Monarchy. So I guess Stalin isn't a Socialist. Lenin wasn't a Socialist, Mao wasn't a Socialist. Because they were all dictators. Only difference is they didn't pass their power onto their children. That being said, did Lenin have children? Stalin and Mao did but... irrelevant. Kim did pass it on.
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@jrenjrapiro817 General and TIK are correct on the definition of Socialism however. It's the same definition I was taught in school. It's the definition literally found in all offiical English Dictionaries. HECK even Google's definition.
Google Definition: Socialism
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Websters: Socialism
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
Being General already posted the Oxford definition I'm not going to.
However both Google, Oxford and Websters state the Public Ownership of the Means of Production, and being the Public Sector is the State, hence why the state is referred to as the Public Sector, it is LITERALLY State ownership of the Means of Production.
When a definition states Common, Society, Government, State, they all relatively mean exactly the same thing. Public Control of the Means of Production. Capitalism is the Private Control of the Means of Production. That is literally the fundamental difference between Capitalism and Socialism. Private Ownership vs State Ownership.
Private Police = Capitalism (Security Guards)
Public Police = Socialism (Local, State and Federal Law enforcement)
Private Hospitals = Capitalism
Public Hospitals = Socialism
Private Farm = Capitalism
Public Farm = Socialism (Collective Farm, State owned Farms etc etc etc)
Over and Over again. Fundamental Difference. How much your nation is one or the other defines how much of a Capitalist country you are vs a Socialist Country. So it's why you can argue there has never been a truly Capitalist country, as it would require a VERY weak central state. Were has Socialism has been tried and failed many times over. USSR being one of the best examples, were the state literally owned almost everything.
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To be honest, in a round about way I'd say "YES" Regardless. Similar to the effect Prussia's defeats against Napoleon reshaped the Prussian Military, and helped introduce German Nationalism. The Franco-Prussian war had a similar effect on the French. I'd say of course losing, and given cruel terms would do the same to post WWI Germany. Though, to defend the British/French post WWI, the Franco-Prussian war saw some pretty harsh terms and even reparations forced upon the French by the Prussians. So what you see with Versailles was more common than people think, and should of been expected, though I still think the terms were too harsh. I just don't believe an entire nation should be punished for the decisions of it's leaders. All you do is give ammunition for political extremist to use.
Now is the Treaty of Versailles responsible for Hyper Inflation? I'd highly doubt it, as it's mostly caused by internal economic decisions not external. I mean, without all the military spending, you'd think Germany could afford the reparations? So the Versailles treaty kind of gave Germany the ability to pay those reparations, even if they were high reparations.
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As a former Fascist myself, dropped it years ago, he even understands Fascism considerably better than most people including most history tubers.
I mean I ran into one history tuber that said Fascism was how did he put it, a Ideology of Contradictions and Redundancy? Basically saying it had no core economic and social foundation, and was entirely a nationalist military totalitarians reactionary movement that is whatever it wants to be at the time to react to some other form of social revolution. Which seems to be the common impression of Fascism. Which means Fascism has no definition, to to them but a Nationalist Reactionary Movement.
Mean while they link ideologies to Fascism that are not Fascist, so they can claim Fascism is an ideology that has no core foundation, as all Fascist movements are TOO radically different from each other. Where I would say that shows a serious flaw in their definition of Fascism and would question whether many of those regimes are even Fascist, something Orwell seemed to notice, and even questioned, which TIK presented in the video "What is Fascism?" Which Orwell openly admitted most people's view on Fascism is well idiocy not his own words.
In short when you read between the lines of what they're saying, any social movement which is counter to the glorious Marxist Revolution is Fascist. Which you know is incorrect, but that view, that foundation of what Fascism "is" (Isn't) is what most people use to build their foundation of Fascism in their head, so in turn few including those making YouTube videos understand what Fascism even is.
Of course historians who are not socialist who use those sources as sources, even if they're not socialist themselves may or may not catch the falsehood in their statements which is why so many youtube videos get this wrong, even if the youtuber making the video may not be a socialist.
TIK actually tried, and did very good in his Mussolini and Fascism Defined video, he actually cared to figure out what Fascism was, at a fundamental level. He used sources with are sympathetic (not supportive but uses Fascist sources directly) but are willing to actually use sources that went to the mouth of Fascist themselves for their information/understanding of the movement. Fascism was, and has always been a Socialist ideology, even back when Fascist didn't want to openly admit it. Fascist did not want to be associated with Socialism 'directly' but the entire reason they called themselves a 3rd way was so many people were terrified of Marxism, and tried to disassociate themselves from the Marxist Socialist movement. It was almost required at the time. As so many throughout society were terrified of Marxism. This is why Nationalist Focused Socialist movements dominated much of Central Europe, and the Balkan States. Why countries like Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Greece, among others all leaned toward Fascism, and some of them turning directly Fascist even before the start of WWII.
Why? People wanted Socialism, they just didn't want Marxism. Fascist brought a new option to them, and the Fascist knew they were Socialist. Which is why Orwell listed them among the parties which needed to make admissions in his article "What is Fascism?" at the time when Orwell wrote that, most Fascist didn't like openly admitting they were Socialist, and Socialist didn't like openly admitting Fascism was Socialist, Fascist today openly admit being Socialist today, and it's only none Fascist Socialist who are in denial still. Orwell seemed to of figured it out. He just didn't openly admit it, I figure to keep many of his socialist readers from "running away" from his writings.
Basically Fascism was a nationalistic centered rebranding of Socialism, if you want a super simple explanation why it exist.
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@On_The_Piss To be honest he made that point in earlier videos, yet people didn't care to accept them. I'd say between 1 hour to 2 hour 30 minutes if you watch that, it is almost undeniable, the Nazis were Socialist. It's an argument I often try to make with people. You have to view Fascism, Marxism, and National Socialism like Religions. They're Socialist or at the very least were born from the Socialist movement, and hold many Socialist elements, and ideologies within their own ideology. It is like comparing Judaism, Christianity, and Islam of which themselves have multiple different splinters, and sects. Yet they all worship the same "God." That is how Marxist Socialism doesn't look the same as Fascism, or National Socialism. Leninism, or Maoism. All created by 'men' who had different ideas on how to reach Utopia of Socialism. That being said though. TIK's comparisons between Marxist Socialism of the USSR and National Socialism of Nazi Germany do make the Nazis look more like the Soviets than they do Mussolini's Fascist. Which is a breath of fresh air for me, as I would often compare the regimes, but I never knew it went so deep.
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@dr1flush Personally I care more about describing what they were in context beyond where they fall on a political chart.
Hitler was anti capitalist, anti marxist, anti conservative and at the same time anti liberal. His movement went against traditional German conservativism. Yet they were also not progressive, quite anti progressive in many areas. It's why it's difficult in my opinion to place them on a chart involving left/right. TIK described it well, Nazi ideology was held together with glue and silly tape and filled with contradictions.
Good example, they claimed they were pro family a very conservative thing to say. Yet used the Hitler youth to brainwash/condition kids, and even have them spy on their families.
Soviet Union and Communist China did the exact same thing with their youth programs as well, but they're not associated with the right.
Mean while Hitler was very pro animal rights, against eating meat, and a few other things, some things which you could accuse him of being a hippy for. Yet was anti homosexual, believed women belong at home, among other conservative values.
So yes, I think it's far more complicated than Liberalism vs Conservativism or Left vs Right. It's why I don't like accusing one as being one or the other. Try avoiding adding that label onto anything if I can. People are too complicated.
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