Comments by "M Fitz" (@MFitz12) on "VICE TV"
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@domteneglia9121 - Tell you what, how about I do the USS Liberty attack next?
The "Liberty Incident" was the product of gross incompetence by BOTH SIDES. Here is as detailed an account as space allows for regarding what really happened and why:
In June 1967 the NSA without notifying Israel or even U.S. 6th Fleet redirected the signals intelligence ship USS Liberty to operate just 12 instead of 100 miles off the coast of Sinai, in a war zone, in a lane not used by commercial shipping & declared off-limits by Egypt (i.e. only Egyptian warships were likely to be found there). At 6:00am on 6/8/67 an IDF patrol aircraft spotted the Liberty and reported her hull number GTR-5 to IDF Naval HQ where an hour later she was identified as American and marked as a neutral ship on the manual plotting (map) table with a wooden model. The problem with these old manual plots is they quickly become clogged with outdated information and need to be cleared frequently. At 11:00am the watch changed at IDF Naval HQ and the new shift followed procedure by CLEARING THE BOARD, but did so without bothering to check if the neutral ship was still present. They simply assumed it had moved on! While just one of the many mistakes made that morning by both sides this typically appalling lack of basic professionalism is what ultimately sealed Liberty's fate. So while the accusation that the IDF knew what and where the USS Liberty was is true, it is also meaningless as after 11:00am everyone in Israel who knew gone home to bed. For all practical purposes the Liberty had ceased to exist.
1/2 hour later panicky inexperienced IDF reservists at El Arish reported an explosion which they blamed erroneously on naval gunfire. The plotting board at IDF naval HQ showed no neutral or friendly ships so it was assumed ANY ship in the area was hostile and the likely cause of this reported shelling. The IDF's response was badly coordinated, unplanned and haphazard using resources unsuited to the task. First a flotilla of 3 small Motor Torpedo Boats were dispatched (with considerable difficulty and delay) to intercept the Egyptian warship, approaching the Liberty just as she was at the end of her "racetrack" patrol pattern and turning about back towards Egypt. The MTB commander interpreted this course change as an Egyptian warship running for home so he pursued. Unable to catch the "fleeing enemy vessel" air support was called in and 2 flights of fighters on ground-attack missions were diverted to this effort. None of the pilots had any training in ship recognition or attack and were not armed for the job, having only guns and Napalm, not the AP rockets and delayed-action bombs one would use when planning to attack a ship. The jets arrived to look for the fleeing Egyptian warship, made a couple of passes at 3,000 feet altitude, saw no Israeli markings on the ship and therefore identified it as Egyptian - a Hunt or Z class destroyer. The ID was wrong but this was not their fault. They were not looking to see what ship this was but rather what Egyptian ship this was - remember there was no other traffic on the plot so they were not expecting to find anything else but an Egyptian warship - and for what little they knew about ships they had one. At 1:58pm the aircraft were cleared to attack, which lasted 14 minutes until one of the pilots recognized Latin, not Arabic markings on the now burning ship, radioed the information to IDF Air Force HQ and broke off. This information was then passed to IDF Naval HQ but this was 1967, there was a war going on and the WW2 surplus IDF communications system was clogged with a massive backlog of messages. It would take another 2 hours before the Navy knew what the Air Force already knew - that USS Liberty was not an enemy ship.
25 minutes after the end of the air attack the MTB's finally caught-up the burning Liberty from astern and flashed a recognition signal. USS Liberty gave a vague reply and an (unauthorized) burst of 0.50-cal. machine gun fire. The MTB commander naturally interpreted this as an Egyptian ship fighting back so he attacked at 2:45pm with his elderly array of WW2 surplus light automatic guns & torpedoes. 15 minutes later while circling the Liberty one of the boats made out the hull number GTR-5 in Latin, immediately ordered a cease-fire and offered assistance.
Hardly the actions of someone intent on sinking a ship he knew all along was American.
Subsequently the Israeli government paid compensation to the families of the 34 men killed in the attack and to the wounded as well as settlement for the damage to the ship. And note: this was 2 separate attacks each of less than 15 minutes each about an hour apart - not a 2 hour continuous assault as is so often falsely reported on anti-Israeli web sites.
The Liberty incident was hardly the first or last friendly fire incident in history but it comes up all the time while nobody EVER brings up other, more deadly friendly-fire incidents such as the similar but more deadly attack on the USS Stark. Nor do we hear about the American shoot down of Iran Air 655 which killed 280 civilians when the most sophisticated air defense warfare platform in the world at the time mistook a regularly scheduled commercial passenger flight flying out of a commercial airport for an F-14 fighter.
So What makes the Liberty incident so special, other than it involved filthy Jews?
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@jrsergii1 - I know what you were talking about. Again, 19 tons of B757 aircraft wreckage were recovered, some of which was presented as evidence in later litigation. Also recovered with the remains of everyone aboard Flight 93, the FDR and CVR for Flight 93, around 1,000 personal items belonging to persons aboard Flight 93, over 500 pieces of US Mail being carried as cargo on Flight 93, etc, etc, etc,...
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@scottyboy2400 - You didn't have enough common sense to not just mindlessly repeat a bunch of false conspiracy memes with not a hint of fact checking.
20 years of research and THAT is the best you can do? Just regurgitating other peoples false claims and bad ideas?
IF you want to see the results of actual research rather than just copying catch phrases and slogans, playing Wack-a-Mole with irrelevant random anomalies and bad ideas off YouTube, below is the super short Cliff's Notes explanation of Twin Towers collapse. Yet, I bet there is a whole bunch of stuff in there you don't know:
The perimeter columns at the impact floors were hollow box-section tubes of welded A36 plate that was 1/4" thick on the outside and 3/8" thick for the other 3 sides and measuring 14" wide on each side. There were gaps 26" wide between each column that were just air. At 14:57 in this video you can clearly see there was more air than steel. There was no structural load bearing concrete in the Twin Towers
youtube.com/watch?v=DgwlFY-4Txc&t=130s&ab_channel=MarkCampbell
Note how even light which has no mass easily passes straight through.
Collapse initiation stage (what started it collapsing) was sagging floor trusses causing the inward bowing of some of those surviving perimeter columns at the damaged floors by up to 5 feet until they failed by Euler buckling, as shown in the first 12 seconds of this video;
youtube.com/watch?v=ULdiD6gYZO0&list=PL4GiNqqck-lzR7pebSWRVLoXyu-aWR3Rr&index=599&ab_channel=MrKoenig1985
Notice how the columns are already bent when the camera zooms in, become a bit more bent over the next new seconds until they give, starting the collapse.
Columns don’t work well when they are bent. The Twin Towers were designed to work with straight elements not bent ones. When you bend those columns they become up to 4 times weaker. Failure is inevitable.
Collapse progression stage (how they kept falling) was by debris falling within the four walls, failing the floor systems one by one until there were no more floors left. Bang, bang, bang, bang one after another breaking loose as they get hit by falling debris, the air between the floors being rapidly compressed and blown out the sides as each floor fails.
This was followed by perimeter column peel off where those outer walls, disconnected from the rest of the structure peeled off and toppled away from the building more than 600 feet on all four points of the compass. This is quite obvious in the overhead shots of the site pre-cleanup. So most of that mass of perimeter columns fell away from the building and not straight down. If you watch not even all that closely you can see large sections of these perimeter columns free falling much faster than the collapse front of the building itself as shown here from 0:05 to 0:15 to see what obvious nonsense the whole idea is (recommend resolution set to 1080P and speed to 0.5);
youtube.com/watch?v=R889eSvuS-w&ab_channel=EnhancedWTCVideos
So much for free fall speed or even near free fall speed I guess.
Core systems failed last through a process I call beam strip down when the floors were violently ripped away and with more debris crashing through the core system. That many core columns up to 60 stories high were briefly still standing after both towers had collapsed is obvious from the imagery. Without lateral support the surviving core columns quickly buckled and failed, dropping largely (but not entirely) straight down as shown here from 2:00 (recommend set to 1080P HD and 0.5 speed):
youtube.com/watch?v=R889eSvuS-w&ab_channel=EnhancedWTCVideos
That much mass of debris falling up to 1,000 feet is going to hit the ground hard and it is going to compress, making for a tightly packaged debris field, which was still up to 14 stories high and spread out over 16 acres from the two 1-acre footprints of the Twin Towers. The famous "Ground Zero Meteorite" artifact is actually 4 floors of a tower compressed and fused together, giving some idea of the massive forces involved.
Comments and questions are welcome. One at a time please. No Gish Gallop and no whataboutisms on some other random topic.
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Well, its puzzling because you are badly informed. No passports were found at the Pentagon that I am aware of but 19 tons of identifiable B757 wreckage was, including both engines, the landing gear, the entire left wing flap assembly, parts of the fuselage, part of the cockpit, seats (some still occupied), the FDR and CVR, etc,...
Planes did hit the Twin Towers. The "boom, boom, booms" you are talking about came later when the towers were collapsing and are a product of the collapse progression mechanisms, which I can go into in quite a lot of detail if you wish.
There are 136 witnesses to the Pentagon attack who saw a plane, with about 2 dozen able to identify the airline, the aircraft type, or both. There are no witnesses who said there was no plane.
All planes fly that low to the ground either right before they land or they crash. Literally any pilot can do either.
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