Comments by "" (@elisabeth5285) on "Chris At Speakers Corner"
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@szuvibes9474
I have seen many Muslims quote Romans 3:7 as “evidence” that Paul supposedly admitted lying.
But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Romans 3:7
If you had actually read Romans 3, you would have learned that Paul was answering a series of question, right from verse 1! Question after question.
In fact, I count at least 15 questions in this chapter. The chapter is almost like an FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) that Paul tackles.
Paul states the question, objection or argument and then he proceeds to answer the questions, refute the objections and destroy the arguments!
Romans 3:7 is literally FAQ Question 7 in the chapter! (Yes, I counted it! :)) So it was not Paul’s asking or saying anything in Romans 3:7. He was re-stating a question that someone asked and if you read on, you will find that he goes on to answer the question!
If you turn to the next chapter Roman 4, guess what? You will see another question right at verse 1. The FAQ continues!
So Muslims, you need to read every verse in its context. No verse stands alone. You cannot take one verse out and try to read your opinions or bias into it. Rather, you have to interpret the verse in the context of not only the passage or chapter but also the entire book and indeed, the whole Bible.
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@JesusisaMuslim
Why are you quoting John 17: 3 as a proof-text to deny the Trinity and claim that Jesus Christ is not God. Your reason is that if Jesus is God, then He would not have called the Father, “the only true God.
The context of Jesus’ comment was that He was speaking as a man to His God. Remember, Jesus is both God and man, the second person of the Trinity, and the word made flesh (John 1:1, 14). Since He was both divine and man, as a man, He would naturally and properly say that His Father was the only True God. He was not denying His own divinity but affirming the Trueness of God as was done in the OT: “Now, O LORD our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, LORD, are God,” (Isaiah 37:20). The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4); and as a man, He would be subject to God. Only, in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God; but it is not a phrase that excludes Christ, for Christ Himself said, “Before Abraham was, I am,” (John 8:58) and did not deny being called God by Thomas in John 20:28.
And so I can still prove with numerous proofs that Jesus is God.
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And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imran 3:85]
Islam does not regard them (followers of other religions) only as sinners, but as kaafirs (disbelievers) who will abide forever in the Fire of Hell. (Tafseer al-Tabari, 3/339)
What Jesus DIDN’T do:
– follow his own Jewish culture’s prejudicial norms
– condemn or rebuke
– warn of judgment or hell
– argue theology, debate, quote the Scriptures, ask if people wanted to know the Gospel, or ask people to change anything.
Think about that for a moment. Jesus didn’t try to convince people to believe anything new, change any behavior, or join his group. He simply loved them, praised the good in them, and only answered the questions they were actually asking. ❤✝️
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@Servant-Of-Al-Qudus The key phrase to notice in this passage is "not yet." Jesus says His time has not yet come, and He does so twice in this short exchange (v. 6, 8).
To His brothers, on the other hand, Jesus said, "your time is always here." What we see from this is that Jesus was not lying, but rather saying that He was not going at the time His brothers thought He should be going, and He was not going with them. "Not yet" does not mean "not at all." In this, we can also see that Jesus was speaking metaphorically in saying that His time had not yet come, because He knew that He would ultimately be crucified, but it was net yet the time for that to take place.
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@filterscape
We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.
One God and One Only
Exists in three Persons
Equal and Eternal
Worthy of equal praise and worship
Distinct yet acting in unity
Constituting the one true God of the Bible.
Christians don't believe in three Gods. That's a heresy called Tritheism. Second, we don't believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three "forms" of God—like, steam, water and ice. That's the heresy called Modalism. Third, we don't believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "parts" or "pieces" or God. That would imply that Jesus is 1/3rd God, the Father is 1/3rd God, and the Holy Spirit is 1/3rd God.
The Trinity is taught in both the Old and the New Testaments. It is taught by implication in the Old and by direct statement in the New.
For instance, the Bible contains numerous clear statements regarding the unity of God: Deuteronomy 6:4 tells us that "the Lord is one." 1 Corinthians 8:4 adds that "there is no God but one." 1 Timothy 2:5 explicitly says "there is one God.
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@Yousef-r4t-h1h
The Quran was written in the seventh century, almost 600 years after the Crucifixion of Christ. The Gospels, in contrast, were written thirty-five to sixty-five years after the events they describe.
Early canonical and non-canonical Christian sources testify to Jesus’s Crucifixion, and we can also confirm that early non-Christian sources confirm our case. In the first century, Roman historian Tacitus and Jewish historian Josephus confirm more than just Christ’s Crucifixion: they note Pilate’s association with the execution. Tacitus, referring to crucifixion as the “extreme penalty,” writes in The Annals:
Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus (15.44).
Recent scholarship persuasively confirms that the four Gospels are based on eyewitness testimony.
No mainstream scholar today argues against Jesus’ historical existence. In fact, nearly all New Testament scholars today, many of whom are non-Christians and skeptics, consider not only Christ’s existence but his Crucifixion to be “historical bedrock.
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@JudeOne3Four
Too bad you don't read the Bible in context. You are trying to prove with John 17:3 that Jesus is not God.
You say that this passage proves that Jesus Himself agrees that there is only one true God, which is not Himself, since He refers to Himself as separate and distinct from the “true God.”
John chapter 17 is a prayer from Jesus to the Holy Father. Since this is a prayer, it is only natural for Jesus to refer to God the Father separately. In that prayer Jesus initially prays that both the Father and the Son be glorified (John 17:1–5). Next, He prays for His disciples (John 17:6–19). Finally, He prays for all believers, both current and future (John 17:20–26). These requests come at the time just prior to the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus was ultimately betrayed by Judas Iscariot and taken prisoner by the Romans (John 18:1–14). The fact that Jesus (the Son) and God (the Father) are presented as separate Beings is nothing new. In fact, the first time we hear from God the Father in the New Testament is at the baptism of Jesus. There, God says, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). Distinction of person does not equate to a lack of oneness.
Jesus claimed to be one with God, and that made His enemies furious. In John 10:30, Jesus states unequivocally, “I and the Father are one.” The next verse says, “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). Jesus’ claim to be God amounted to blasphemy in the eyes of the Jewish leaders. Jesus goes on to question them: “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son?’ Do not believe Me unless I do the works of My Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father” (John 10:36–38). Here, Jesus is challenging these skeptics to look at the miracles He had performed and come up with an explanation other than that Jesus and God the Father are one.
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@szuvibes9474
I don't know where you get the so-called wisdom from. Nowhere does Paul literally say that lying is permitted by God's will.
Paul returns again to the question raised in verse 5, somewhat re-phrasing it, using a more specific example. This challenge strikes at Paul's argument about God's judgment on human sinfulness. The basic claim is this: If telling a lie further displays God's truthfulness, leading to His glory, why should He condemn me for that lie? Paul has previously said that our sin does indeed result in proving God's righteous sinlessness. So if our sin brings glory to Him, in a sense, should He really condemn us for it?
Paul states in the following verse that some people were accusing him of teaching exactly this: that human sin leads to God's glory, so we might as well do more of it. Paul refutes the very idea of this in two directions. First, God's righteousness means, by definition, that He cannot be unrighteous. He is the standard of goodness and truth, so His judgment of our sin is by definition completely fair and justified. We deserve it.
Second, as Paul will write in the following verses, human sinfulness is inevitable. We do not sin, in any way, with an intent to bring glory to God. We sin because we are sinners. Later, Paul will more directly refute that salvation is a license to sin (Romans 6:1). For now, particularly in the next verse, he will brush aside this criticism as rank slander (Romans 3:8).
Romans 3:1–8 contains a series of questions which might have come from someone opposed to Paul's teaching in Romans 2. Using this challenge-response structure, Paul clarifies that being Jewish and circumcised still comes with great advantages. He also points out that God remains faithful to the Jewish people in spite of their sin. In fact, His faithfulness in the face of unfaithfulness increases His glory. That does not mean, however, that God wants human beings to continue to sin, as you was accusing Paul of teaching.
Romans 3 begins with a question-and-answer scheme. These are responses one might expect from someone opposed to what Paul wrote in Romans 2. Next, Paul quotes from a series of Old Testament passages. These Scriptures show that those writers also agreed that nobody, not one person, deserves to be called righteous. Paul declares emphatically that no one will be justified by following the works of the law. Finally, though, he arrives at the good news: righteousness before God is available apart from the law through faith in Christ's death for our sin on the cross.
The prior chapter explained that God's judgment on sin will come to all men, whether or not they understand the literal law. Faith in God, in the heart, matters more to God than rote obedience. At the start of this chapter, Paul answers a series of questions from an imagined objector to those teachings. Next, he quotes a series of Old Testament passages which support His teaching that human beings are by nature sinful. Each of us turns away from God. Nobody can be justified by the law, Paul insists. Fortunately, it is possible to attain God's righteousness: but only by His grace, through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice for our sin on the cross. We must come to this by faith, and it is available to Jews and Gentiles alike.
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@T-19- Are you talking about contradictions in the Bible?
2.256. There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right path is distinguished from error; therefore, he who denies the devil and believes in Allah has taken hold of a strong hold, which is unbreakable. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The verse that follows makes the limits of this “no compulsion” a little clearer:
2.257. Allah is the Friend of those who believe; He brings them out of darkness into light. But the friends of the unbelievers are the devils, they bring them out of light into darkness; these are the inhabitants of the fire, in them they shall dwell.
5.32. For this reason We ordained for the children of Israel, that whosoever killeth a man, except for the slaying of others, or for causing disorder in the land, it were as if he had slain all mankind, and to him who gives birth to one, as if he had given life to all mankind. And verily Our messengers came to them with clear signs and yet - afterward - many of them on earth became transgressors.
the Qur'anic verse mentions a precept that Allah gave to the Jews "the children of Israel" in time. The question is whether this is still valid, since Allah has prescribed new provisions in the Qur'an and canceled old ones.
- the Qur'anic verse also explicitly allows killing in retaliation for murder and for creating disorder in the country.
What it means to "make disorder in the land" is clarified in the following verse:
5.33. The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His messengers and strive to create disorder in the land is only that they be killed or crucified, or that their hands and their feet be cut off on the one right and the other on the left, or that they be expelled from the country. That will be a disgrace to them in this world, and they will receive a great punishment in the Hereafter.
There is no compulsion in religion. In faith there is no compulsion (2:256; 3:21; 10:99,100)
- Any religion one wants to believe in is acceptable (5:69)
- Kill the disbelievers wherever they are. Fight the unbelievers (2:191-193; 8:12 and 9:123)
- Only the Muslim religion is good (2:120; 3:20,62-64,95)
- The Jews and the Christians and the Sabians who put faith in Allah and the last day will be saved (2:62,63; 5:69)
Prophets:
- There is no difference between the prophets (2:137,285)
- We have considered one prophet more important than another (2:253)
Jesus:
- Jesus was not killed (4:158,159)
- Jesus was killed (3:55,56; 19:33)
The funny thing is that the Quran also writes the following:
S: 4:82 If the verses do not agree with each other or contain contradictions, it means that they are not the word of Allah. With this phrase the Quran undermines its own truth.
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@JesusisaMuslim
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone,” (Mark 10:18).
Does this verse mean that Jesus is not good? Jesus said only God was good. Then, if we use the Muslim logic, Jesus is not good. Of course, that doesn’t make any sense.
Jesus was subject to the Father (John 5:30).
Jesus did not come to do his own will, but the will of the Father (Luke 22:42).
Jesus was not sent of his own initiative but of the initiative of the Father (John 8:28).
Under the law, if Jesus was obligated to fulfill that law, which included worshiping God (John 17).
Having laid this foundation, we can then see why Jesus would say that he could do nothing of his own initiative. It was not that he did not have a will or a desire to do things. The issue is that Jesus had come to do the will of the father and he was completely in subjection to the father. Therefore, in that complete subjection, he could do nothing on his own initiative.
This does not mean that Jesus is not divine. It means that Jesus, having two natures, and one of them being human, subjected himself voluntarily to the law, as a man, and operated completely under the requirements of a man.
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Muhammad, performed no miracles to confirm his message (not even when his followers asked him to - Sura 17:91-95; 29:47-51). It is only in a much later tradition (the Hadith) that some supposed miracles appear, and they are all rather fantastic.
Water cannot be polluted by anything. According to the hadith, a number of people inform Mohammed about a water source containing dead dogs, menstrual cloths and excrement. However, the prophet replies that “water is pure, and cannot be defiled by anything” (Sunan Abi Dawud 1:67).
Fever is caused by the heat of hell. According to Muhammad, the heat of hell is the cause of fever, and therefore must be treated with water (Saheeh al-Bukhari 7:71:621).
Seasons are determined by hell. According to Mohammed, the seasons and associated differences in temperature are caused by hell. Hell has a hot and a cold part. One day, Hell notices that both parts are consuming each other, and asks for help from Allah (Saheeh al-Bukhari 4:54:482).
The earth is carried by a giant whale. In Sura 68:1 it says: “Nun. By the pen and what they write”. The word "noon" refers to a gigantic whale that carries the earth as we read in the accompanying explanation of Ibn Kathir. According to him, Allah created the nun (the whale) and laid the earth (a flat disc) on its back. Then Allah placed mountains on the earth that fasten the earth like pegs on the back of the whale.
The moon is split in two and made one again. This particular phenomenon is mentioned in Sura 54:1-2 in the words, "The hour is approaching and the moon is split." According to the hadeeth (Saheeh al-Bukhari 4:56:832), this happened during Muhammad's lifetime. However, there is no scientific evidence that the moon ever split in two and then rejoined.
In addition, there are no testimonials from other countries describing this phenomenon. Surely it is plausible that Persians, Chinese, or other peoples would have seen and written this if it were really true.
Embryos develop in phases of 40 days. According to the Quran (Sura 22:5), embryos go through the following stages: semen/sperm, then clotted blood, and finally a lump of flesh. Each of these phases lasts 40 days according to Muhammad (Saheeh al-Bukhari 4:54:430). After these 120 days are over, a fetus is formed. An important detail is that during the last phase an angel comes and determines the gender on behalf of Allah (Saheeh al-Bukhari 8:77:594).
In reality, the development of an embryo is very different. An embryo is already a fetus after 9 weeks, so after 63 days instead of 120. After 56 days all organs are already developed and there is already a recognizable human being. According to the Qur'an, the embryo is still in the second phase like congealed blood.
In addition, the sex of the baby is determined immediately at conception, and not after 80 days as Islam claims. So it is clear that modern science is anything but supportive of Islam.
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@kierancho Glad you're having fun with yourself.
So you claim the Bible is not reliable?
Muslims repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that the Qur’an is the only trustworthy scripture in existence. This is why Muslims often attack the Bible. But this cannot be according to the Quran. The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.
Torah – “We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers,” (Sura 2:87).
Psalms – “We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms,” (4:163).
Gospel – “It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong),” (3:3).
Also, “And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah,” (5:46).
We see that the Qur’an states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this, we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qur’an since the Qur’an says that the Word of God cannot be altered:
“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).
“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all,” (6:115).
“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,” (10:64).
When Muhammad (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu’ran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu’ran states that God’s word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for you is “When and where was the Bible corrupted since the Qu’ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah’s words cannot be changed?” 🤔
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@szuvibes9474
Nice try. I asked you if you meant Romans 3:7 and your answer was yes. I have given a clear answer, but apparently you have difficulty reading what is understandable in context.
Muslims teachers are dishonest to cherry pick verses like Romans 3:7 and then feed it to their unsuspecting followers who just swallow what they are taught and go on to repeat, propagate and viral the deception and treachery of those Muslim teachers.
The Bible and the Quran are different. You cannot read one the same way you read the other.
The Bible must be read in context. To take one verse and to inject your own bias, presupposition or agenda to it, is misinterpretation. This is how cults were formed. Every verse, every chapter, every book in the Bible is connected.
“Scripture interprets scripture.” This is a principle of interpretation which simply means the scriptures is in harmony and one part of Scripture can be used to interpret other parts of Scripture.
However, this is not the case for the Quran. There is very little context in the Quran, if any. The Quran seems more like a random haphazard collection of verses. One verse often does not necessarily relate in any way to the next verse. For someone reading the Quran for the first time, it might be jarring experience to see the utter incoherence that is clearly evident, verse after verse, chapter after chapter.
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@JesusisaMuslim
The Quran itself testifies that there is no other judge besides Allah,
Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers. S. 6:114 Pickthall
And also proclaims that judgment belongs entirely and solely to him:
That is because when Allah alone was called upon, you disbelieved, and when associates were given to Him, you believed; so judgment belongs to Allah, the High, the Great. S. 40:12 Shakir
This is why the Quran says that Allah will come to judge creation:
Nay! When the earth is ground to powder, And your Lord comes with the angels in rows, And Hell will be brought near that Day. On that Day will man remember, but how will that remembrance (then) avail him? S. 89:21-23 Hilali-Khan
In light of such assertions, the last thing we would expect is for Christ and his followers to ascribe such titles and functions to the Lord Jesus. After all, if the Quran was correct that Jesus and his disciples were Muslims then they would never have ascribed such divine characteristics to Christ, since to do so would go against Islamic monotheism. Yet if they did attribute these unique roles to the risen Lord then this proves that both Christ and his Apostles went around proclaiming that Jesus is God in the flesh (even though he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit), thereby proving that Islam is false.
The Holy Bible teaches that Christ is the Just One, in fact the Holy One:
“But you denied the Holy One and the Just (ton hagion kai dikaion), and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.” Acts 3:14-15
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@T-19- And I'm telling you you're reading the Bible wrong.
Portraying Jesus as a murderer. Perhaps you have not read your Quran properly?
Sura 26:
Thou shalt fight the Jews until even the stone behind which a Jew hides himself cries out to you: 'Servant of God, behold a Jew behind me: kill him!'"
Sura 2:193, 8:39;
“Fight them until idolatry ceases to exist and religion belongs wholly to Allah.”
Sura 3:200
“O believers, persevere patiently and patiently resist and equip yourselves for battle and fear Allah.”
Surah 4:76
“Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, but the disbelievers fight in the way of the idol. So fight the henchmen of Satan.”
Sura 4:84
“Fight then in the way of Allah, without bearing a burden except for yourself, and exhort the believers.”
Sura 4:89 (Specifically against those who apostate Islam is the verse):
“If they turn from you, seize them and put them to death wherever you find them; and take neither friend nor helper from among them.”
Sura 5:33
“But the punishment for those who fight Allah and His Messenger and bring ruin (= disbelief) in the land is that they be killed or crucified, that both their hands or feet are cut off, or that they are exiled.”
Surah 8:12
“I will sow terror in the hearts of the disbelievers. Cut off their heads, mutilate them in all limbs.”
Surah 8:60
“And prepare against them with what you have of fortitude and horse power, to terrify Allah's enemy with it.”
Surah 8:65
“O thou prophet, exhort the believers to battle.”
Sura 9:5
“Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, take them captive and besiege them and prepare them for all kinds of ambush.”
Surah 9:14
“Fight them. Allah will punish them by your hands and humiliate them.”
Surah 9:29
“Fight those who disbelieve in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and who do not make forbidden what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden (= the Gentiles), and those who do not adhere to the true religion among those to whom the Scriptures is given (= Jews and Christians), until they pay the tribute out of hand in submission.”
Surah 9:41
“Come out lightly and heavily laden and fight, with your possessions and your person, in the way of Allah.”
Surah 9:73 and 66:9
“War war against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal with them harshly.”
(The "hypocrites" were those who gave Muhammad his will and declared him a prophet, but were refusing to effectively support his jihad.)
Of course Mary breastfeeds Jesus, he was a baby.
On the other hand, breast-feeding adults is normal according to the Quran.
Sunan Ibn Majah 1944:
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “The verse of stoning and breast-feeding an adult ten times was revealed1 and the paper lay with me under my pillow.
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