Comments by "jim oberg" (@jimoberg3326) on "The New York Times" channel.

  1. -- How about you verify it, first? So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
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  2. So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
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  3. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
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  4. ​ @The1TheyCallFoo313  ""yet, you don't question the white guy's statement the same way do you?" == Yeager was testifying to what he remembers he said. The accusation is based on what Dwight recalls he heard from a guy who said he heard it from another guy who said he heard it from Yeager. I find both first-hand recollections equally credible, but the third hand recollection somewhat less. So before passing judgment, I'm asking -- can anybody locate any more direct witnesses to what Yeager is supposed to have said, to counter his own claim he never said it? Isn't that reasonable?
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  5. YES. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
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  6. The story needs verification. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
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  7. He said somebody told him that somebody told HIM that somebody ELSE told him something. So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
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  8.  @benproudfoot1409  - " attempting to discredit alleged bigotry in the 1960s is a highly questionable use of one’s time." == Thanks for the advice, perhaps my goal wasn't clear. As a respected spaceflight historian [and expert source for the NY Times for decades], I have been trying to 'CREDIT' -- to verify -- the very serious charge against Yeager about ordering other students to shun Dwight as a means of inducing him to quit. I've talked to other members of that test pilot class, to other AF veterans, to astronauts of that era -- NONE recall such a command being given, or being followed. If all that's left is third-hand uncorroborated hearsay that is discordant with every other source from that period, then what?
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  9.  @The1TheyCallFoo313  -- Here's the view of a black pilot colleague of Yeager's: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
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  10. " he was denied cause of racism. " == So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
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  11. @Pill Cosby -- No, I seriously want an answer. And all I've gotten so far are dodges and evasions, like yours.
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  12.  @benproudfoot1409  == " presumably because he resented the Kennedy administration’s involvement in what he perceived as his domain" == No need to presume, I thought he spelled it out clearly, he felt Dwight didn't measure up to established criteria and was being given a pass for political propaganda motives. Influence-pedaling in promotions and assignments was not unheard of, and was culturally anathema to operational commanders who considered it physically dangerous in high-hazard duties. Speaking of not measuring up, was the issue of Dwight's height ever of interest, him being three inches shorter than the minimum design pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module?
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  13. His highly-publicized presence in the two USAF test pilot schools in 1962-3 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts. Some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned.
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  14.  @davidadams2395  -- Do you suppose the NASA selection board paid attention to the awkward fact he was three inches below the minimum height design for the Lunar Module? He was 5'3", the shortest pilots that could fly the LM were 5'6". Why is this fact ignored and omitted by the grievance-fanning industry?
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  15.  @CynicalOldDwarf  == Don't be a jerk. The Kennedy White House made a political pawn out of him, chewed him up and spit him out when he was no longer politically useful. Now to cynics iit looks a lot like the 'politically correct' enhanced version of his story is useful again to the Dems to foster more inter-racial resentments to 'get out the vote'. The guy deserves all the honor we can give him for enduring, and inspiring, and finding a much higher artistic calling to everyone's benefit, so just lay off.
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  16.  @JohnDoe-ky6wz  -- I can't dispute that, or the experience-based instinct to generalize. There were plenty of authentic horrifying realities of racist hate and violence then, and later. The record also shows NASA was on the side of the angels on all levels of confrontation, so these accusations aren't just inaccurate, they're irresponsible. imho.
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  17. Cool, he was a semi-finalist for the 1978 class? http://www.spacefacts.de/bios/candidates/english/greene_lionel.htm George Carruthers, a noted astronomer, was also a runner-up then IIRC. https://youtu.be/d2eNwNNHMIk
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  18.  @TeraGreene1  -- We [in our 70's] are safely hunkered down and well-provisioned, but our anxiety for family, friends, and strangers is intense. Bless you for thinking to ask. As a retired 'rocket scientist', I'm researching the Ed Dwight story intensely, it's far more complex than the simple 'NASA racism' meme that's so politically profitable these days.
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  19. Uh, no. Only handful of the early astronauts ever flew X-planes, and many were younger than 29 at selection. Aside from his middlin' class standing, one key deal-breaker may have been his height, 3" too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module.
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  20.  @Watchingyou-r9q  -- Please be more cautious about these incendiary stories. The 'shunning order' is very dubious, nobody's ever found a first or second hand witness to it, in half a century. Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
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  21.  @corneliusalterego6527  == As a historian not committed to any particular person, I'm still trying to locate a single first or second-hand witness to the alleged 'shun him' order from Yeager aimed at Dwight. Any practical help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
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  22.  @corneliusalterego6527  == ""you’re missing a LOT of information."" -- Yes, that can ALWAYS be a problem, especially with half-century old narratives. So 'due diligence' obliges us ALL to seek out supplemental and contextual information, as I've been trying to do on this controversy. Along those lines, what have you heard of regarding the suggestion Dwight was three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo Lunar Module?
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  23. Might there have been non-racist criteria at NASA that Dwight failed to adequately satisfy?
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  24. Press reports won't tell you the full story, including potential non-racial reasons why NASA chose other pilots. But his presence in the two USAF test pilot schools in 1962-3 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts. Some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned.
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  25. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
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  26.  Tink Tong  -- I'm just interested in determining the historical, verifiable facts of the narrative. What's wrong with that?
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  27.  @JR-xi2md  -- Good advice for all of us, there are too many temptations around us trying to lure us into that doom. Now, how can we find any real witnesses to the alleged Yeager comment, that could well have reached Dwight's ears in highly garbled form, considering how many tongues it had to pass through to get to him?
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  28.  @benproudfoot1409  -- Funny thing is, all we have is a third-hand hearsay, sole source and uncorroborated, while Dwight himself later said some students kissed up to him trying to piggy-back on his White House influence. Nobody's found a single other witness in half a century.
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  29.  @benproudfoot1409  -- As you wish. I'll keep looking independently, if you have any suggested directions, please share them. jamesEoberg@comcast.net
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  30. He did, and he motivated follow-on candidates to gain the stars.
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  31. NASA didn't pick him in the Sep 1963 astronaut selection, he admits his class standing was middling, but claims actual pilot skill should have not been a factor because the capsules were remote-controlled anyway
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  32. Good advice. And it seems even Captain Dwight may not actually have lived through the ordeal as portrayed in the NY Times and its 'Project 1619' editorial spin. For example, the alleged Yeager comment was third-hand hearsay [no primary or secondary witnesses were ever found] that had no impact on Dwight graduating on schedule from the USAF research pilot [NOT 'astronaut'] school. His class standing wasn't tops because as he admits, his nationwide three-day-weekend lecture tours for the White House detracted from his studying and his flying practice. And the NASA selection board may have noticed he was about 3" too short to fly the Apollo lunar module anyway. But for inspiring a cadre of follow-on black pilots who DID meet the stringent requirements, he certainly deserves honorable acclaim.
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  33. Hollywood excels at science fiction and fantasy, why not?
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  34.  @youwillknowsomeday  -- I'm hoping that SOMEBODY will try to answer it. Will you?
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  35.  @franci.f.  -- His presence in the test pilot school in 1963 inspired a wave of follow-on fully-qualified black pilots such as Robert Lawrence, picked for USAF astronaut status in 1967, and others who became shuttle astronauts, some died alongside their white colleagues on fatal missions [their names deserve special honor, too], and one became NASA Administrator who always honored Dwight for being his initial inspiration. We got where we are today because of pioneers such as Dwight, who deserve all the honor they earned. What I suggest we DON'T need are media voices deliberately using manufactured grievances to inflame manufactured resentments to manipulate contemporary Americans into particular political choices.
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  36.  @franci.f.  -- You are a thoughtful and compassionate person whose assessments would be very helpful to everyone, don't give up hope even though we see all sides throwing gasoline on any sparks they can conjure up. Be well.
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  37.  @franci.f.  -- Yeah, I'm the guy [www.jamesoberg.com] and whatever investigations I've succeeded at often relied on the assistance of helpful strangers, too.
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  38.  @franci.f.  -- I've put a lot of stories at www.jamesoberg.com, please enjoy them.
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  39.  @HS-ie8tj  "He was racially abused and called Kennedy boy non stop. They tried to destroy his mind. They couldn't. Once Kennedy was dead, they took him out. Just as they had dreamt of doing. Animals." == Please don't let myths poison your mind, there are plenty of authentic grievances that never should be forgotten. But this isn't one of them. Kennedy' assassination had nothing to do with his career, in September 1963 NASA picked the top 2 pilots in the class [Dwight was 8th out of 16], JFK was shot in November, and the class ended as scheduled a few weeks later with all the graduates including Dwight assigned to flight testing duties. His own book admits his class standing was not affected by harassment but by the White House demand he take three-day weekends flying around the country giving speeches while the other students stayed on base studying and practice-flying.
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  40.  @shrineheart87  -- It's dismaying how so much inflammatory fabrications have been presented as the true history of this situation.
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  41.  @itsme7819 == OK. My investment is as a USAF/NASA veteran, and a spaceflight historian [see www.jamesoberg.com]. The reconstruction of the events as serious aerospace historians see it, is Captain Dwight being used as a symbol by the Kennedy Administration, to the point that he reasonably believed that White House backing would get him a NASA astronaut selection, whatever his technical skills might have measured at. Dwight acknowledged that the long weekends of national speaking tours arranged by the White House did impact his class standing, but he always believed [and still does] that top-level piloting skills weren't really a fair criterion for NASA selection because [says Dwight] all the space capsules were continuously remote-controlled from Houston anyway and piloting skill shouldn't have been a factor. .
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  42.  @bellydancer3146  == "That racist"? So where is there ANY first or second had witnesses to the alleged nasty comment from Yeager? There's one half-century old THIRD-hand account from a guy with a justifiable grudge, plus Yeager's denial [and endorsement of his color-blindness from black pilots who actually flew with him] plus the record of no actual personal actions of that suggested type ever happening.
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  43.  @ARCHR221  -- First, you're dodging the key question -- WHERE are the first or second hand witnesses that the reported comment was accurately described? My interest is as a retired 'rocket scientist' and highly-regarded spaceflight historian who doesn't shrink from heretical or unpopular interpretations, and as a veteran of USAF service from the early 1960s. I also care about the unheralded experiences of men who served with Yeager, especially pilots like this guy: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
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  44. Agreed!
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  45. And it was so much in keeping with their established stunt space strategy that it was predicted a year before it happened. Stunts worked a charm on their gullible target audience.
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  46. Count me in to contribute to a GoFundMe account.
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  47. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
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  48. Agreed. Dwight's presence in the test pilot school was an inspiration for many black pilots to follow his lead, and one of them, Charles Bolden, became NASA Director after serving as an astronaut. Dwight's own studies at the test pilot school in 1963 were hampered mostly by the White House demand he take three-day-weekends off traveling the country on lecture tours, which he admits was a significant distraction from his studies. He never disputed that his class standing suffered from that distraction. As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
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  49. The folks who think spaceflight is fake and the Earth is flat. Ignore them.
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  50. Where exactly did NASA get it wrong?
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