Comments by "jim oberg" (@jimoberg3326) on "The New York Times" channel.

  1. The reporter's wording was tacky, but even the astronauts called themselves 'the all-American boys'. Where is the blame on NASA in all this?
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  2.  @LucDevine  == You are extremely well read. We share a lot of overlapping interests, I'd be grateful to get your assessments of some of my own investigations on many of these genuinely fascinating mysteries. Give me a little time to see what you might be interested in first, please.
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  3.  @The1TheyCallFoo313  -- If the comment [actually, a question] is 'weak', it should be easy to answer. I've been asking it a lot these past few months, as you noted correctly. Nobody has been able to answer it. I'd call that a pretty STRONG question, then... wouldn't you?
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  4.  @marioarias9942  -- So you can't find ANY witness to that alleged Yeager quote either? Me neither. Maybe it was just gossip.
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  5.  @averageamericangirl6819  -- They were, with plenty of authentic horrifying realities of racist hate and violence. The record also shows NASA was on the side of the angels on all levels of confrontation, so these accusations aren't just inaccurate, they're irresponsible. imho.
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  6.  @gnranger -- A tad obsessive, I don't deny it. But I'm a historian and I really think it's a fair question. So far, nobody has answered it.
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  7. As intended? Do you suspect there was more to the story that was left out?
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  8. Please seek professional help.
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  9. Uh, the shuttle program ended ten years ago. Why not start a fund to buy him a ticket on a Virgin Galactic or Bezos spaceship flight next year, or even petition them to offer him  free ticket as a publicity stunt? I'm good for a $100 pledge, let's get this rolling.
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  10.  EmpireFall -- Don't ever believe ANY single source on 'what happened' in such inflammatory narratives. As a historian, what bothers me most about this story is that there are no first or second hand sources regarding the alleged Yeager comment, and that Dwight's subsequent training went through to successful graduation and reassignment. to test pilot responsibilities commensurate with his attained expertise. The two guys picked from Dwight's class of 16, by NASA, were at the top of their class, Dwight admits he wasn't, his excuse is all the weekend travel for speeches arranged by the White House, while the other students stayed on base studying and flying. Seems to me the White House put him in an untenable position that was going to be politically useful no matter what the outcome -- and it's still being used for political use, even today, as the NY Times shows.
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  11. Even though he was 3 inches shorter than the vehicle's minimum height design spec? LM pilots flew standing up peering out a small window.
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  12. Where's the evidence for NASA racial bias? While in the USAF "Aerospace Research Test Pilot" school [NOT an 'astronaut school'] Dwight came up before the NASA 'Group 3' astronaut review board in 3rdQ 1963, the top 2 students [of ~15] were picked by NASA [Dave Scott and Ted Freeman]. Dwight admits his evaluation scores weren't that high due to all the weekends away that the White House demanded he do speaking tours stead of studying / practicing. He thought he deserved a pass on his lower grades because the White House wanted him picked no matter what, for symbolic reasons, and because he insisted top-skill test pilots weren't needed anyway since the capsules were continuously remotely-controlled from Houston anyway [which wasn't actually accurate]. The class ended as scheduled in December and the students dispersed to test pilot related assignments, as always planned.
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  13. No argument with your overall view, but as a historian, I'm still troubled by the too-easy assumption that the Yeager comment was accurately described after a third-hand hearsay sequence. Nobody seems able to find any actual witnesses to the statement, nor any consequences of the alleged command, if it even ever existed. Dwight graduated on schedule with the rest of his classmates.
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  14. What 'other astronauts'? This was an AF training program, none of the students were astronauts. And none of the students ever seemed to have remembered such a comment by Yeager [who denies it], Dwight heard a third-hand hearsay of unverifiable accuracy. And he graduated from the course just fine.
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  15. -- About Captain Dwight?
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  16.  @smileandlaughs  == It may not have been that cynical, if he'd been picked it would be a campaign plus for the Dems, and if not picked, a motivation for renewed loyalty to the Dems from angry black voters. But nobody made a political issue like that, back then, so I just take them at their word, they wanted to let the best available candidate have a shot. Nowadays, the political connection of this narrative with the NY Times editorial campaign on '1619' seems very suggestive.
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  17. So how do we know if that was really said? As for the claimed comment by Yeager, Dwight says he heard it from a fellow student who said he heard it from an instructor who said he heard it from Yeager [who denies making it] -- the kind of multi-hand hearsay that would never be allowed in court or in a principled newspaper], nobody seems to have found any first or second hand witnesses, and Dwight went on to graduate with his classmates before getting a major test pilot leadership command in his original military branch. He set a sky-high standard that motivated many follow-on black pilots to strive to excel and surpass, so we're all grateful for his service and his post-service cultural contributions.
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  18.  @Alvin-1138  -- No argument. Lots of people made lots of stupid comments, did lots of stupid and evil things, and still do. NASA had a leading role in its workforce and its communities in the 1960s in beating back those ancient curses. But Dwight's major drawback in the school seems to have been the burden of three-day-weekend nationwide speeches for the White House while other students stayed on base studying and flying.
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  19.  @Alvin-1138  "Btw I get it, nobody likes hearing their Hero wasn't always heroic. But reality is reality." -- No, I don't think you get it. I'm a spaceflight historian interested in the full reliable facts of this particular incident. Why hasn't anyone ever found a first or second hand witness to the alleged comment? Perhaps a triple-hearsay mutation of some original remark got to Dwight. I'd like to know the reality, not just get my existing biases reinforced.
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  20.  @Alvin-1138  -- Thanks for the rational response to an inflammatory subject. 'Every time' isn't the issue, it's this one very well-documented and researched episode. The NY Times last July reported it talked with two contemporaries of his at Edwards, apparently neither of them had any recollection of such a comment. And the comment as it got to him by multiple hearsay didn't make any sense because he WASN'T ostracized [by his own words] and graduated as scheduled six months later [and was 'gone', but not because he was driven away, but because that was the end of the training program].
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  21. About NASA?
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  22.  @bluephantom6043  -- What did NASA do wrong?
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  23.  @bluephantom6043  -- Agree. He inspired a lot of further applications from black pilots, one of who later became NASA Administrator, so his honorable place in history is assured. Thanks for the reply. [his main problem seems to have been he was too SHORT to fly the Lunar Module, by about three inches!]
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  24.  @bluephantom6043  "o be denied after completing everything just because of your height, "== The school he completed was a general aerospace test piloting school, with NASA astronaut selection awaiting only a very small fraction of graduates. He completed the school and was given a top position in test flight operations at Wright Patterson AFB. He admitted his class standing was not top-drawer [like the 2 of the 16 who were picked by NASA] because he sacrificed study and practice flying time to fly across the country giving speeches for the White House every week-end. He wanted a waiver on flying skill level because he claimed the space capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston anyway -- but they weren't.
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  25. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
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  26. The poor guy was thrown into the public spotlight for JFK's political advantages, and I don't doubt he was assured by the White House that they would get him selected. And he makes it clear that the publicity campaigns they scheduled him on did significantly distract from his studies and flight time [in his autobiography he blames his lower ratings on Yeager for giving permission to take most weekends off, supposedly with the malicious intent of having those trips lower his performance, which he admits they did]. He played an honorable role as an inspiration to the next generation, but that seems poor consolation for his dashed hopes
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  27. Where exactly did NASA get it wrong?
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  28.  @janea5898  -- Like this, for example? The White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. His final class standing was 8th out of 16, NASA only picked #1 and #2.
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  29.  @janea5898  What is 'horrible' about what happened to Captain Dwight? He was in a group of about two hundred pilots in the running for astronaut selection, and NASA picked 14. How was he a victim?
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  30. Do you WANT to understand why not?
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  31. He inspired a follow-on generation of African-American astronauts, one of whom became director of NASA. His experience suffered more from White House demands he take time away from his Edwards AFB training to travel and give political speeches, and he concedes his class standing was middling [only the top 2 of 16 got selected by NASA itself]. Apparently the White House promised him they'd make NASA take him anyway, but NASA didn't [all this, BEFORE Kennedy got shot], based on existing selection criteria, probably including [NOT mentioned in current news media coverage] he was three inches too short to safely fly the Apollo 'lunar lander' [the crew stood up to see out a small window, and used ceiling mounted navigation instruments he would have needed a footstool to reach].
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  32. Competition was fierce. In my analysis as a space program veteran and spaceflight historian, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying [his final class standing was 8th out of 16]. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. The AF put him on their list of nominees for the 1963 selection but after consideration NASA did not even invite him to Houston for final interviews [only the top 2 of his ARPS class were finally selected, he had rated 8th]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. In addition to his class standing, NASA’s decision may also have been based on physical stature: at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum design spec for pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module.
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  33. == Where's reliable validation of the alleged comment? Captain Dwight said he heard it from a student who said he'd heard it from an instructor who said he'd heard it from Yeager. I don't doubt Dwight's account of what he personally heard. But any court of law or ethical scholar or competent journalist wouldn't TOUCH a third-hand hearsay allegation without more direct sourcing.
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  34. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
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  35. His standing in the Aerospace Research Pilots course [run by the USAF, it was a 'prep school' for pilots in planned military as well as civilian spaceflight careers] was middling, his excuse was all the time he had to take away from base giving speeches for the White House rather than studying and practice-flying. He claimed being a top student like the two guys [out of a dozen] NASA picked for the '63 astronaut class wasn't really necessary since the capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston anyway [which isn't true, actually]. And at 5'03" he was 3 inches below the minimum pilot height that the Apollo lunar module was being designed for.
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  36. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
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  37. Nobody seems able to find any witnesses to this alleged comment, just third-hand hearsay. Shouldn't we get better evidence?
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  38.  @qwistie_io -- [grin] Very revealing response, thanks.
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  39.  @qwistie_io  -- Any imaginative excuse will do when you don't have evidence for a specific claim of fact. Let's leave it at that.
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  40. Agree we all should be proud of him. But Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting Democrats, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. In September 1963 the two top rated students in the class [Ted Freeman and Dave Scott] were among the 14 new pilots NASA selected for real astronaut training, but Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him as well on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. Dwight's most significant positive impact [for which full honor and gratitude is due] was to create the national publicity that propelled even more fully qualified black pilots and scientists into subsequent spaceflight careers. Plus he was three inches too short to fly the Apollo moon lander vehicle. NOBODY that short was ever accepted for the Apollo program. NY Times neglected to tell you that, huh?
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  41. The anti-Dwight racism charge against Yeager is pretty shaky on historical grounds, want to see some other assessments -- including one from Dwight himself?
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  42. Were there possibly legitimate reasons NASA didn't pick him?
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  43. "This makes me angry " == The story is =SUPPOSED= to make you angry, why are your buttons so easy to push. Could there have been non-racist reasons why NASA passed on the chance to select Dwight as an astronaut? Reasons this film hid from you, on purpose?
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  44.  @sebastianniqvist3144  == My point is that coverage of this dramatic chapter seems deliberately one-sided. In my analysis as a space program veteran and spaceflight historian, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying [his final class standing was 8th out of 16]. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. The AF put him on their list of nominees for the 1963 selection but after consideration NASA did not even invite him to Houston for final interviews [only the top 2 of his ARPS class were finally selected]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. In addition to his class standing and massive White-House-imposed public relations duties, NASA’s decision may also have been based on physical stature: at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum design spec for pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module, requiring he carry a footstool onto any moon-landing mission he might have been assigned to.
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  45. -- "Destroyed"? Might there have been any legitimate non-racist reasons for NASA to pick other candidates over him?
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  46. ​ It’s Me == Where's reliable validation of the alleged comment? Captain Dwight said he heard it from a student who said he'd heard it from an instructor who said he'd heard it from Yeager. I don't doubt Dwight's account of what he personally heard. But any court of law or ethical scholar or competent journalist wouldn't TOUCH a third-hand hearsay allegation without more direct sourcing.
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  47. Peddled, or counterfeited?
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  48. Didn't seem to work: "Over time, he slowly won over the other trainees: “The other students began to come around. 'Cause they figured out, ‘Say wait a minute now. They tell us to stay away from this cat. The real deal is that that cat is gonna be the only one of us that's gonna go to the moon. If the President has his way, he's the only one of us that's gonna go! So we better be his friend.’” " https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=astronaut%20ed%20dwight&epa=SEARCH_BOX
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  49. == Wasn't that movie about the first Mercury orbital flight, not the moon flight?
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  50. Just looking for any real witnesses to the alleged Yeager racist comment. So far, NONE.
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