Comments by "jim oberg" (@jimoberg3326) on "The New York Times" channel.

  1. NASA didn't select him or dozens of other test pilot applicants for the new astronaut class in Sep 1963. Why is his case 'racism'?
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  2.  @missdee212 == Thanks for replying. I wish you would try to explain. The facts are, he finished the class 8th out of 16, and NASA took #1 and #2 [in the September 1963 class]. Dwight does not dispute his class standing but points out that his studies suffered from the White House requirement he take three-day weekends away from base, giving speeches [he was promised they'd fix it for him, but didn't]. And there is the troubling matter of him being 3" too short [5'03"] to safely fly the Apollo 'Lunar Module' [5'06" was the shortest guy to fly it, Pete Conrad], might that have been a factor?
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  3. As an inspirational figure he fully deserves gratitude and honors, and I'd chip in at GoFundMe for a flight for him on a private rocket that could take place in a year or so.
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  4. Ed Dwight gets an asteroid named after him -- NASA.
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  5.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  == Nobody else seems to have heard that nasty third-hand-hearsay order attributed to Yeager. No witnesses ever have been found. Dwight graduated on schedule with the rest of his class. NASA picked the top two rated pilots out of the 16 students. Dwight admits he didn't rate highly because of all the time he had to take off away from school giving public speeches for the White House. And if anything's been erased, maybe it's the awkward fact that he was 3" too short to safely fly the Apollo 'Lunar Module'. Is there any need for other reasons not to select him for the Apollo program?
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  6.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  == "why did they treat him like a lost cause after the Kennedy assassination?" == I don't see how the assassination had anything to do with it. NASA had made its 1963 astronaut class selection two months earlier. The test pilot class Dwight was in had always been scheduled to end in December, when all the graduates received their next assignments in flight testing. The next NASA pilot astronaut class wasn't selected until 1966. The whole idea that Kennedy's death doomed Dwight's selection by NASA fails the simple test of chronological sequence.
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  7.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  == "The lack of eyewitness reports stating that yeager, or any other of his colleagues, made racist remarks towards Dwight, is simply because no one would have been inclined to report such a thing." == Three of the astronauts in the NASA selection that year -- Dave Scott, Walt Cunningham, and Mike Collins - have explicitly stated that they never heard or heard of any racist remarks about Dwight. Yeager denied it too. So what's the next excuse?
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  8.  @mariagalleriaxi8632 -- "The fact that he was 3 inches too short. Where did you get that information? Unless it was in the video and I happened to miss it. I even looked at his wikipedia page, but I see no mentions of it" == Of course you wouldn't hear about it in the major media coverage. He was 5'03" tall, an inch shorter than the AF pilot minimum, but he was given a pass due to his enthusiasm. The Apollo Lunar Module [where the pilots stand on the floor during powered descent and on-moon and ascent] has a forward viewport and roof-installed navigation optical instruments, and it was designed to accommodate crew between 5'06" and 6'02", with Pete Conrad at 5'06" the shortest-ever flown crewman. It should be obvious why the NY Times and other reports would leave out discussion of such an issue.
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  9.  @mariagalleriaxi8632  Thanks for the conversation. Dwight inspired a follow-generation of black astronauts who fully joined into the triumphs and tragedies of space exploration. Worth all gratitude and honor from all earthmen.
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  10. He might be. Where are any real witnesses to his alleged nasty comment? A guy says that another guy said that another guy said HE said such-and-such isn't persuasive in a court of law... or common sense, seems to me.
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  11. How exactly did racism at NASA block Dwight's walking on the moon during Apollo?
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  12. Shouldn't his story also include the part about him not meeting the standard for height [minimum allowable was 5' 4" so one's feet could exert maximum force on cockpit foot pedals in emergencies], which early in his career the officers overlooked because of his enthusiasm and dedication to becoming a pilot? But the design specs for NASA spacesuits and for the Lunar Module [where the crew stood on the floor to fly it] was a minimum height of 5'6" [which Grissom and Conrad barely met]. Heartbreaking and trivial, perhaps, but not arbitrary. That still wouldn't prevent him from getting a space tourist flight next year when they begin, and I'd be happy to pledge money towards the ticket.
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  13. -- Dwight on NPR, March 2020: " I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on."
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  14. What's your beef with NASA on this issue?
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  15.  @dennismorris7573  -- After the Dec 20 flub of Boeing's capsule, that's an even better idea! Check out Sierra Nevada's "Dreamchaser" vehicle, now being developed.
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  16.  @re_anetse  == The AF min height is 5'04", but he was nearly an inch shorter, and got a waiver on that based on his enthusiasm, he claims. The limit is based on physical force and range needed in pressing cockpit foot pedals. Flight doctors had noted a correlation in accident rate based on shorter pilots dying more frequently in mid-air flight control crises. The LM limits were based on the two pilots flying it standing up in front of a small window [looking out and DOWN as they descended to the moon's surface], using ceiling-mounted optical navigation devices to get back to the main ship. He could have used a stool [his lighter body weight made adding the device feasible] but if symbolism was the driver for his presence, how would the need for him [alone of all the astronauts] to carry a stool onto the spaceship looked, to the world public?
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  17.  @misiaazoska  == "why would they make him believe that he had a chance?" == I don't think the White House handlers had a clue about the height issue. But it sure seems they gave him the impression that if he kept giving speeches, his class performance wouldn't be important, they'd order NASA to ;pick him anyway. I've done a full court press for any NASA astronaut selection board records from 1963 and established to my satisfaction they were destroyed in a hurricane flooded warehouse in 1978, but one factor NASA would have noticed [besides the height question] would have been how the White House severely interfered with his USAF training for cross-country speeches, and how likely those distractions would have doubled had he been picked as an astronaut trainee. . And Yeager had nothing to do with any of that -- his 'shun him' order remains uncorroborated third-hand half-century-old hearsay.
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  18. Mid-20121, and there's still no sign of a SINGLE first-hand or second-hand witness to the alleged Yeager command to test pilot class students to 'shun' Dwight. Sounds more and more like a half-century old third-hand hearsay garble.
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  19. Well-deserved honor from the new 'US Space Command" == https://static.dvidshub.net/media/pubs/pdf_55597.pdf
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  20. Based on a single uncorroborated third-hand rumor? Versus Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 ... and Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
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  21.  @pbailey68  == " ed freely talks about all the horrible things chuck said to him to get him to quit. " == Yeager wasn't their den mother, as it's been explained to me he tested every student's commitment to the very dangerous career. Other black pilots who flew with him didn't feel anything particularly racially-motivated, here's an excerpt from one of them: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
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  22.  @pbailey68  == "what he said last week. " == Where was that. Here's what he wrote a few months ago: Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58
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  23.  @pbailey68  -- The big historical dispute is the claim Yeager instructed the other students to shun Dwight, isolate him, so he'd quit in six months. Funny thing is, nobody's been able to find a single first-hand or second-hand witness to the claimed comment in fifty years.
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  24. NASA passed on considering him for the 1963 astronaut class, can you imagine any non-racist reasons they may have done that? Class standing? Demonstrated study skills? Attitude to a pilot's responsibilities on a spaceship? Too short to see out the Lunar Module window?
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  25.  @firstlast9813  ==In my analysis, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision.
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  26.  @firstlast9813  -- He had an awesomely creative career as an artist, how is that 'broken'? Like 99% of applicants, he didn't get selected as an astronaut, was everybody else 'rejected'? He admitted his school performance was just 'average' but insisted he deserved selection for the inspirational propaganda value.
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  27.  @firstlast9813 -- He said this himself. He blamed his failure on Yeager for allowing him to leave the base on weekends, on granting his request to go on the lecture ours arranged by the White House, knowing it would depress his school performance. He also did e4ntion the concerns over his below-allowable-minimum pilot height.
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  28.  @firstlast9813  -- YOU didn't miss it, the people controlling the media narrative deliberately left it out. Everybody's got agendas, from all directions -- there ought to be a better way with internet search engines to find the what-AREN'T-they-telling-me about any controversial target. I dunno how to implement that.
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  29. Did he mention he was several inches too short to see over the pilot's window in the Lunar Module?
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  30.  @5pctLowBattery  -- Isn't this video about Ed Dwight's experience in 1963?
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  31. " his racism tarnished all of his accomplishments and breaks my heart that he invoked "The Wrong Stuff" that prevented an exemplary human being like Ed Dwight from making a significant contribution to society." == This is a serious accusation and the historical support for it is mighty shaky. Here's some VERIFIABLE testimony with a starkly different view: Edward J. Dwight [March 2, 2020] == “I never accused Chuck Yeager of causing my failure to fly in space. It was the political environment of the day that transcended anything that Chuck Yeager had an impact on.” https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10159027154926756 Smithsonian "Black in Space" documentary, Feb 23, 2020, curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Dwight’s career. And historians searched for evidence, and haven’t found it.” https://youtu.be/I7jJ8jEh608 at time 10:58 Here's a Yeager profile by a black pilot who flew with him: http://victoriayeager.com/emmett-hatch/
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  32. The Smithsonian special 'Black in Space" let him repeat is story but concluded, according to Smithsonian curator Cathleen Lewis: “We don’t know if Chuck Yeager derailed Ed Dwight’s career. And historians have searched for evidence and haven’t found it.” No primary or secondary witness to the hearsay report has ever been found.
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  33. Will you do any fact-checking first?
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  34. -- What did NASA or any of its employees have to do with this? He never was there.
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  35.  @alizaidi8846  -- Not allowed? By NASA? Dwight admitted he wasn't at the top of his class, but he said he had a good excuse [too much time traveling for White House organized speeches] and that being a top test pilot wasn't really important anyway since the space capsules were all remote-controlled from Houston. Do you believe that?
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  36.  @alizaidi8846  -- That might or might not be true, but rather than just assume it's true in order to bolster your own views, how about doing some historical research to determine the facts rather than the modern political spin on this dramatic episode? Why do you imagine NASA didn't pick him out of the two hundred serious contenders for astronaut election?
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  37. Black astronauts have died alongside their white colleagues on space flights, aboard Challenger and Columbia. Don't dishonor their memories, please.
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  38. Who are we talking about, specifically, as the 'blockers'? Was NASA involved at all?
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  39. I'm curious -- how has this narrative changed your attitude toward NASA's Apollo program?
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  40. Sad, if he did. In half a century, nobody's found a first-hand or second-hand witness to the comment in the version that was relayed to Dwight through several anonymous retellings. Third-hand hearsay without any corroboration has no place in academia, jurisprudence, or journalism, but it seems to flourish on the Internet. What am I missing?
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  41. ??
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  42.  @glenncater1  -- Why should I go there? What do you claim it proves?
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  43. [facepalm]
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  44. No question it was an ordeal on him, but he was as much [or more] a victim of cynical White House electioneering manipulation as of non-existent ''astronaut racism'' [as Wikipedia and contemporary political exploiters called it].
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  45. NASA didn't pick him for the 1963 astronaut class. Might there have been any non-racial reasons?
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  46. Re Dwight, where in the NASA selection process do you think unfair criteria were applied? Class standing? Physical condition? Attitude? In my analysis as a space program veteran and spaceflight historian, Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting JFK policies, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying [his final class standing was 8th out of 16]. Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. The AF put him on their list of nominees for the 1963 selection but after consideration NASA did not even invite him to Houston for final interviews [only the top 2 of his ARPS class were finally selected]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. In addition to his class standing, NASA’s decision may also have been based on physical stature: at 5'03" he was three inches shorter than the minimum design spec for pilot height for the Apollo Lunar Module.
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  47. " how he was denied the chance " == Did you ever wonder, were there other reasons besides skin color that might have made him less desirable for selection? His class standing was 8th out of 16, NASA picked #1 and #2, he himself admitted his studies suffered by the White House requirement he take three-day weekends off base, giving speeches around the country.
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  48. = Dwight had too many too heavy loads to struggle with that had nothing to do with bigotry, since the White House required him to take three day weekends DURING the 'aerospace research pilot' training in 1963 for national speaking engagements promoting Democrats, while the other pilots spent full time on classes, books, and flying. In September 1963 the two top rated students in the class [Ted Freeman and Dave Scott] were among the 14 new pilots NASA selected for real astronaut training, but Dwight's expected White House backing failed to persuade NASA to pick him as well on public relations grounds [he admits he did not rate high enough on technical merit but blames this on the impact of his White-House-demanded publicity campaigns -- a plausible explanation]. Kennedy's death the following month obviously had nothing to do with the already-made NASA decision. Dwight's most significant positive impact [for which full honor and gratitude is due] was to create the national publicity that propelled even more fully qualified black pilots and scientists into subsequent spaceflight careers.
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  49.  @GigitheTrader  -- Thanks for the exchange, let's honor the guy for the inspiration he's passed on to others.
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  50. Where exactly did NASA get it wrong?
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