Comments by "Stephen Hendricks" (@stephenhendricks103) on "TheStraightPipes"
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Good review and an excellent entry in the "Goldilocks" (i.e. tweener) sized crossover category. However, along with every other review I've seen there's no mention that the Santa Fe is a two row, four cylinder turbo version of a Kia Sorento. Same size. (The Santa Fe is one inch shorter.) Same weight. (Oddly, the Santa Fe is a few pounds heavier.) Same passenger space in the first and second rows. Almost identical overall cargo space. Same transmission. Same suspension. Same AWD systems with the same center locking differential. Same ground clearance.
Kia dropped the turbo4 from the Sorento lineup in 2018. Hyudai picked it up for the Santa Fe. Likewise, Kia dropped the two row option in 2018. The Santa Fe picks up exactly the same configuration with identical under-floor storage in the space the Kia devotes to storing the third seat row. Worth noting that the under floor storage in the Santa Fe is a nice feature but access depends on the cargo floor being empty. So it's a good place to store smaller items you don't need often but not for large items or stuff you need to access when the regular cargo space is being used.
Slightly different interior materials in the Ultimate Santa Fe trim versus the KIA SX-L (The SX-L has somewhat more upscale interior materials) but the overall look and feel are nearly identical with the same infotainment screens, (though the Sorento has its screen integrated into the center stack). Same switch gear in the same places. Identical safety and driver convenience systems. (e.g. BLIS, ACC, Lane keeping, etc.)
Don't need or want third row seating? Want a turbo4 engine? Take the Santa Fe. Want the same vehicle with a reasonably sized third row of seats for occasional use and think a V6 is better suited to this class of vehicle? That's the KIA Sorento. There is a price difference at the top trim levels. Not surprising since the Santa Fe is being pitched as a competitor to the CR-V and Rav4 (though it's somewhat larger than either one) while the Sorento competes against three row midsize crossovers like the CX-9, Highlander, etc. But given the typical discounts from MSRP for Kia's and Hyundai's it's unclear just how much the difference actually amounts to.
All in all, each vehicle is a strong contender in the growing category of "tweener" crossovers positioned between "compact SUV's" and much larger "midsize" vehicles. Depending on one's priorities each deserves a serious look.
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This is the second review of the GLI DSG I've seen that notes the fact that the transmission automatically upshifts when set in manual mode. If that's the case it's quite different from the behavior of the same transmission in the GTI. I initially believed it was a failure on the part of the reviewer to engage manual mode properly. Now I'm not so sure. Here's the way the DSG works in my GTI.
(1) Move the console shift to the right. That locks the transmission in manual (i.e Tiptronic) mode.
(2) Select the desired gear with either the paddles or the console shifter (forward for upshift, backward for downshift.)
Following that procedure the transmission stays in the selected gear all the way to redline. No automatic upshifts. While in manual mode the transmission will automatically downshift to second gear as one slows to a stop, first to second gear at about 5 mph and then to first gear as the car comes to a stop. Otherwise, however, the car remains in the selected gear regardless of throttle position and acceleration.
It is possible to select manual mode temporarily by use of the paddles alone without moving the console shift to the right. If the transmission is in "auto" mode and either of the paddles is used
the transmission changes to manual mode and can be controlled by the paddles for a short time. However, the car will revert to "auto" mode and automatically upshift after a few moments. Is it possible that was the procedure you guys followed? In addition to the possible difference between the GLI and GTI there's one other possibility. My GTI is a 2018 model with the six speed DSG. I haven't seen any reviews of the 2019 GTI with the seven speed DSG that mentioned any automatic shifts but I suppose it's possible the reviewers missed the behavior.
In any event if the DSG behavior in the GLI is as you describe it, it's a big disappointment. And assuming it doesn't apply to the GTI, it's a significant difference between the vehicles despite supposedly having the same engines and drive trains.
EDIT: Did some further checking with my local VW dealer and more importantly with my local APR tuning shop, Achtuning, who perform more tunes on VW's than just about anyone in the country. As I suspected, there's no difference between the DSG transmission tuning in the GTI and GLI. Furthermore, if the transmission is put in Tiptronic mode with the console shifter it will hold a selected gear up to redline. At that point it will upshift but not before.
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Considered this pretty seriously when I was replacing my 2013 GTI with a new car that was suitable to be shared with my soon-to-be-driving teenage daughter. I'd liked the 2.7L V6 in the Ford Edge and thought it might work well in the Fusion. However, compared to the Accord 2.0L Touring and the Mazda 6 Signature trim, it didn't make the cut. Strong points were AWD, which it obviously needed with that engine, and straight line performance. Also, considering that it will soon be discontinued I suspect it will be semi-collectible in a few years, much like the now dead Taurus SHO and the Chevy SS. And while the MSRP is over $40K (USD) I found I could get one for about $8K less than that.
Weaknesses were MPG's (Have to feed that V6.) , interior materials, fit and finish, and handling. It's a heavy car, especially on the front end. And while it might be fine in Kansas with its long, long straight roads, I live in the Pacific NW (US version) where mountains and curves are common. The self-adjusting damping and pothole detection are trick but don't make the Fusion a sport sedan.
Bottom line is that it might be a "Dad's car" but not this dad. The Honda Accord, Mazda 6 and even the Camry V6 XSE all outpointed the Fusion for me. A Subaru Legacy? Not even on the radar. So what did I do? I replaced the 2013 GTI with a 2018 GTI. Just couldn't face the prospect of not having one in the garage.
P.S. Great review as usual, guys.
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@GraysonCarr That's an understandable choice for you, Grayson. Though the new Santa Fe wasn't yet available when I purchased an SX-L version of the Sorento earlier in 2018, I think I would still make the same choice today. Here's why.
We're a family of three and a half (My wife, myself, our teenage daughter, and a big dog) so we could have gotten along most of the time with a two row crossover. But while we use the third row only occasionally, it's very convenient when we chauffeur our daughter and several of her friends, especially when putting them as far as possible away from the driver is a plus both for the adults and the teenagers. :) It's also a big advantage when the third row means the difference between taking a single versus two vehicles on a local outing. Of course, many folks don't face those challenges but for us the third row of the Sorento was a major advantage, especially since it is actually usable and wrapped in a package that's more compact than its competition.
Second, the Sorento is my wife's daily driver and our family truckster for long slogs on the freeway. For those duties the V6 is smoother and quieter with more linear performance. I like turbo 4 engines. I have a VW GTI. But for the size and weight of this class of vehicles I think a naturally aspirated V6 is more appropriate for us. Again YMMV.
Finally, you're certainly correct that comparing MSRP's makes the Santa Fe more affordable. But real world negotiations can paint a different picture. The MSRP for our Sorento was a bit over $48K. I purchased it for $40K. I don't know, of course, what deal I could make for the Santa Fe but I suspect that the discount on the SX-L KIA is significantly more than the Ultimate trim of the Santa Fe. MSRP comparisons are useful as a starting point when assessing the cost of a vehicle but if one is serious about a particular vehicle, it's important to determine what a particular dealer is willing to offer.
Bottom line is that you and I purchased different vehicles because we have different priorities. That's why I take reviewers' list of the "best" vehicles with a very large grain of salt. I think you purchased an excellent vehicle given your priorities. I'd say the same about our choice.
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@dalex7777 Thanks for the kind words, my friend. I hadn't seen the TFL comparison of the 2016 Sorento and the Santa Fe, so thanks for citing that, as well. A couple of points.
First, I said in my original comment that the 2019 Santa Fe was slightly heavier than the comparable Sorento. That was wrong. It came from a quick google search and I should have checked the sources further. In fact, the Sorento is about 200 lbs heavier than the Santa Fe according to the manufacturers' specs. That makes sense since the Sorento has a third row of seats while the Santa Fe does not.
Second, the TFL video you cited presents a real puzzle. Despite a weight advantage and better HP and torque numbers in the 2016 Santa Fe vs the 2016 Sorento 4 cylinder turbo motors, the Sorento blew the doors off the Santa Fe in their "mashup" drag race. The TFL guys couldn't explain it and neither can I. I would say, though, that TFL's performance tests are typically Unique (e.g. conducted a mile above sea level) and not necessarily carefully controlled. Their videos are informative and fun but I wouldn't bet the farm on their results.
In this particular case, the Santa Fe and Sorento were comparable in terms of engine displacement and AWD. The result may well have been the case of differences in the individual vehicles involved. My first guess would be that the Sorento had better tires for the wet conditions in the "drag race" or other deficiencies in the particular Santa Fe being tested. Since the video is four years old and each model has since been updated, I suspect we'll never know. In any case, it's an interesting video.
Like you, I replaced an earlier generation of the Sorento with an example of the current version. In my case it was a 2012 V6 AWD SX-L and a comparable 2018 model. I didn't have the option of the turbo 4 when I purchased the 2018 model since it had been discontinued after 2017 due to the low "take rate" for the turbo motor. It's interesting to hear from someone who has one.
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VW fan here. So when my wife and I were shopping for an SUV for our family (two adults, 14 y/o daughter, big dog) earlier this year we looked seriously at both the Atlas and the Tiguan. The SUV is my wife's daily driver (I have a GTI) and the family's road trip vehicle so she had 3 votes to my two. (The kid got one vote and the dog got a half vote.)
As much as I wanted to like it, none of us was impressed with the Tiguan. Third row seating isn't a huge priority for us but it's very convenient occasionally when chauffeuring a gaggle of teenagers or going out with another family taking a single vehicle rather than two. The Tiguan's 3rd row option is a joke and not a very good joke. Further, the 2.0L turbo 4 banger in the Tiguan seemed sluggish when not driven in "sport" mode. (The AllTrack 1.8 liter mill felt "peppier.) All in all, the new Tiguan is a far more functional, less cramped, but less fun to drive vehicle than the previous version but it didn't thrill anyone (except the dog but he likes any vehicle as long as he gets to go.)
The Atlas certainly isn't "cramped." And if one needs comfortable seating for five or more adults on a regular basis, it's the best in class. A smooth naturally aspirated V6 with a good eight speed transmission that's well suited to the mission of this kind of vehicle. When we were shopping, though, the 2018 Atlas trim levels limited features such as leather seating and integrated navigation to the top trim SEL Premium. That pushed the MSRP to over $50,000 (USD). VW has apparently seen the error of their ways; the 2019 trim levels have been adjusted somewhat to provide a better value.
In our case, the Atlas was just too damn big. My wife complained that she felt like she was driving a bus. Ultimately, the KIA Sorento was a better fit for us, especially with the $8000 discount off MSRP we received.
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Wow! Guess we shouldn't be surprised if you guys get few Ford products to review for the foreseeable future. :) Hope that isn't the case. Haven't driven the Edge ST but my wife and I looked seriously at the 2018 Edge Sport, the ST's predecessor. For the most part your take on the ST matched my impression of the Sport.
The 2.7L twin scroll turbo V6 is very impressive, though arguably overkill for this class. But while Ford has tweaked the engine to give it more HP and torque, it doesn't seem to have made much if any difference in overall performance. And while one might expect an improvement in tow rating, it's not there, still stuck at an anemic 3500 lbs. To be fair, the braking distance has improved substantially and it's impressive for a vehicle weighing substantially more than two tons. The lack of improvement in performance apparently stems from the new 8 speed transmission, added presumably to keep up with the Joneses and to help fuel efficiency. The six speed in last year's Sport was perfectly adequate and would probably have been just as good in the ST. Even worse, the eight speed transmission hasn't exactly been warmly received by several reviewers. And while the six speed box was well suited to a manual mode, that doesn't seem to be the case with the new transmission.
We loved the overall size of the ST. Its "tweener" size between compact and midsize SUV's is great for maneuvering in traffic and parking in the garage or at the mall. It's virtually the same size as the Kia Sorento and the Hyundai Santa Fe and offers near identical cargo space. On the other hand, Ford has done little to remedy the "Fifty Shades of Gray" interior. The seating is not impressive, either, especially in a vehicle with a near $50K MSRP. Finally, my wife had the same reaction as Yuri to the driver's seating position. The immense distance from the dash to the base of the windshield and the long distance to the edge of the hood made her feel like she was piloting a long outboard dinghy from the stern. As far as I'm concerned, simulated exhaust sound falls into the same category as "simulated" gears in CVT's and simulated exhuaust tips. Very annoying. And then there was my pet peeve: a "performance" vehicle with a tiny tach stuck as an afterthought on the far left of the cockpit.
In the past the Edge was Ford's "test bed" for innovations and new designs in their SUV's. Obviously, that's no longer true. It appears that Ford invested its available resources and efforts in the sixth generation of the Explorer. From my perspective that's a shame.
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