Comments by "" (@walterkronkitesleftshoe6684) on "Historigraph"
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Thats some utter nonsense you've wasted your time typing in there.... "Hitler never realy intent to invade the UK" indeed.
Please read below the opening preamble of "Fuhrer Directive No. 16" issued on 16th July 1940 from the Fuhrer HQ to OKW.
"16 Jul 1940
The Führer and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces.
Führer Headquarters,
16th July 1940.
7 copies
Directive No. 16 On preparations for a landing operation against England
Since England, in spite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England and, if necessary, to carry it out.
The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosecution of the war against Germany and, if necessary, to occupy it completely."
Of course in your addled mind Hitler sacrificed close to 2000 luftwaffe aircraft, and the creme of his prewar luftwaffe "Experten" aircrews, and stripped his inland waterways of 2500 vital large canal barges to carry over the 13 wehrmacht divisions, including 2 panzer divisions, for a laugh.
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@druisteen Below is the vebatim British ultimatum delivered to Adm Bruno-Marcel Gentoul at Mers-El-Kebir on the 3rd July 1940
"It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer, we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose, we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty’s Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers-el-Kébir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives:
(a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.
(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment. If either of these courses is adopted by you, we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation, if they are damaged meanwhile.
(c) Alternatively, if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews, to some French port in the West Indies—Martinique for instance—where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must, with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.
Finally, failing the above I have orders of His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships us from falling into German or Italian hands."
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The initial torpedo hit on the HMS Prince of Wales, was even more fortuitous that the one that struck the rudders of the Bismarck 7 months earlier. If it had struck anywhere else than where it actually did, it's likely that PoW's torpedo defence design would have shrugged off the blast. As it was the torpedo hit the support stanchion of the port outermost propeller shaft. This relatively unimportant looking piece of steelwork actually kept the propeller shaft in solid, correct alignment as it passed through various bearings, seals and "stuffing boxes" as it made its way from the ship's engines out of the hull to the propeller itself.
With the support stanchion blown away, the now unsupported rapidly spinning propeller shaft oscillated and flexed wildly and in doing so tore apart all of the various hull seals and bearings along its length, destroying the water integrity of sealed compartment after sealed compartment throughout the aft of the ship, meaning that as opposed to one or two compartments/tanks being flooded, a far greater proportion of PoW's integrity was destroyed, on top of which the flooding shut down multiple electrical generators thereby knocking out of action many of PoW's systems, the most vital of which in the emergency flooding situation she then faced being her pumping and ballast systems.
Also the absence of the RN armoured aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable, which on the 3rd November 1941, had been damaged in the Carribean as she was about to redeploy to Singapore was a major contributory factor to these events.
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@maxn.7234 I know that the long held German national policy of "drang nach Osten" was still uppermost in Hitler's mind, BUT he was not happy with the western European situation in summer 1940. He first tried to "soft soap" the UK into submission, which failed, and then hoped he could cause the collapse of the UK govt, if necessary by effecting a landing in the south of England. When he failed in achieving this, it wasn't the end of the matter. He only moved on the USSR because he believed that the communists would fall within a year, and then he would have moved back to Britain for another attempt.
It's utter nonsense to say "no one in Germany was serious about it". The simple fact of the economic dislocation that Germany exposed herself to by the stripping of her entire canal system of barges, the marshalling of nearly 30 army divisions (including 4 panzer Divs) just in the initial assault wave, and the creation of 2 regiments of amphibious assault tanks was no "bluff", but most telling of all was the damage that the luftwaffe elected to inflict on itself by its efforts in the skies over Britain. Close to 2000 aircraft destroyed with the majority of the aircrews lost to the luftwaffe. They were only prepared to make that sacrifice because it was their full intention to knock Britain out of the war and welcome those thousands of highly trained aircrew back into the ranks of the luftwaffe after their liberation from British PoW camps, something which obviously never happened.
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@maxn.7234 What part of the world's then largest navy interdicting German merchant naval traffic, and an air force that was increasingly starting to relatiate against German cities, on top of the UK's potential to act as the western allies's largest unsinkable aircraft carrier do you not understand?
I think the Luftwaffe bombing of British cities went a LONG way towards keeping the British public's interest focussed on the ongoing struggle. Of course Hitler made appeals to the UK to accept a "Pax Germanica", What makes you think that the UK was going to settle for that, when every other promise made by Hitler had turned out to be a complete lie?
Remember When the nazis wanted to reintegrate the Sudeten Germans back into the greater German reich.... and then a few months later marched right the way through Czechoslovakia to "Sub Carpathian Ruthenia"? There weren't any "ethnic Germans" there.... or Hitler's "I have no more territorial demands in Europe" shortly before sending the Wehrmacht into Poland.
2000 Barges in Denmark? There wouldn't be any land left for all the canals they have to build to moor them!!! The barges actually employed by the wehrmacht to be adapted as troop carriers were not little narrow boats, but large flat bottomed cargo carrying Rhine barges known as prahms which were used for carrying coal and other bulk cargoes, each one capable of carrying many hundreds of tons of bulk cargo, so a sudden removal of large numbers of them would have had a palpable short term effect on German industry. How do you make out that "none of the barges were sent west" when there are historic photographs of RAF bombers dumping their bombloads over hundreds of them in Ostend, Calais, Boulogne, and Dieppe during August and September 1940?
Also Germany doubled the number of the panzer divisions it possesed by reducing the panzer contingent of each existing divisions to 1 panzer regiment and doubling the number of largely horse drawn panzer grenadier regiments in each division. The Panzer divisions assisgned to "Seelöwe" were of the non-watered down 2 panzer regiment type.
Of course Sealion was a dumb plan... but when you've blustered at your enemy in his bolt hole and he's told you to "get stuffed" what else is there for you to do but attempt to make good your threats, as you KNOW he is going to get stronger and stronger and cause you big problems in the future? As I said above quite simply that the luftwaffe was prepared to lose a few thousand highly trained aircrew into British captivity clearly illustrates that they fully believed that they were going to cause the downfall of Great Britain and recoup their temporarily lost fliers.
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@maxn.7234 Hence why I specifically said the POTENTIAL to become the unsinkable carrier. Do pay attention.
What makes you think Germany controlled all of Europe apart from Spain in 1940? You seem to be forgetting the entire Balkans and Greece were still independent countries, and Italy although part of the "pact of Steel" was NOT under German control, witness their kack handed invasions of Greece & Egypt which were most definitely NOT part of German strategic planning. Also there was NO chance that Spain was going to ally with Germany. The head of German military intelligence Adm Canaris, who had Franco's ear, had secretly advised him NOT to fall in with Hitler, and also the supply of US food which kept the devastated post civil war Spanish population alive was in NO uncertain terms supplied to them on the condition of Spanish neutrality.
While Germany did indeed receive MASSIVE support from the USSR up until the Germans foolishly bit the hand that was feeding them, they did NOT supply the Germans with everything they needed, hence why Germany struggled throughout the entire war for materials such as copper, tungsten, manganese, rubber and other vital supplies. Even during 1940 Germany which had built up prewar stockpiles of many commodities and had benefitted from the ravaged economies of her recent European conquests was already having to re plan her economy after the supply of US materials and fuel dried up because of the unexpected British & French declaration of war in sept 1939. Even after the fall of France the RN stopped most German ships from attempting to trade with the US.... Hence why the early US Policy of "Cash and Carry" so benefitted the UK and hindered nazi Germany... even though the Germans were quite at liberty to trade with the US (because of US neutrality) they had virtually no chance to do so because of RN interdiction.
Of course Britain didn't pose a direct threat to Germany during the summer of 1940, I at no point have said it did, but it WAS a nasty thorn in the side of the nazis and DID pose a threat for the future. The nazis knew that the post Dunkirk evacuation period was THE best opportunity they were ever going to have to remove that problem. Hence why they chose to dash their much vaunted airforce against Fighter Command. Of course Britain could not win the war alone.... but it could not be beaten into submission, and it acted as the SOLE catalyst that carried on the fight that was eventually to see the fall of nazism. IF the UK had surrendered in Summer 1940 as the ENTIRE world expected us to then a nazi Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals would have been the most likely outcome.
Of course there were pacifist anti war voices in Britain, BUT they were in a minority. Being a democracy such voices were not herded into concentration camps as they were in Germany, even potential British traitors such as Oswald Mosley and members of "the Right club" amongst others lived safely at "His Majesty's pleasure" in Great Britain for the duration and then freely in the peace of post war Europe.
You have also ignored the massing of over 30 German army divisions in North Eastern France in Summer/Autumn 1940 and the assembling of thousands of converted maritime craft for their transport across the channel... Don't think because the Kriegsmarine understood the naval reality of Sealion, that the German army and air force concurred with their appraisal. A hamfisted improvised attempt at something is still an attempt.
And remember the German's postwar mindset over their failed first phase of "Operation Sealion"..... "if at first you don't succeed, deny all evidence that you ever attempted it in the first place".
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@Bracus.Reghusk The numbers evacuated from the Dunkirk pocket were.
205,000 British troops,
110,000 French troops
23,000 Belgian troops.
The BEF suffered 66,426 casualties, that was 11,014 killed or died of wounds, 14,074 wounded and 41,338 men missing or taken prisoner
The BEF lost one seventh of its personnel killed and captured, because the TEN BEF divisions on the Belgian border were left isolated by the unannounced withdrawal of the French first army on their right flank, and collapse of the Belgian forces on their left.
The Perimeter of the Dunkirk pocket was manned by British, French and Belgian troops, which fought to allow British French and Belgian troops be evacuated MOSTLY by the RN and British "little ships".
Don't try to blame the DREADFUL performance of the >140 divisions of the French home army on the 10 BEF divisions. They were seconded to the PISS POOR French high Command, and it was THEY who lost the battle.
Luckily We Brits fought on and saved you from the 1000 year nazi reich, while the majority of the French population quietly acquiesced and collaborated with nazi rule.
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Below is the vebatim British ultimatum delivered to Adm Bruno-Marcel Gentoul at Mers-El-Kebir on the 3rd July 1940
"It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer, we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose, we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty’s Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers-el-Kébir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives:
(a) Sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.
(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment. If either of these courses is adopted by you, we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation, if they are damaged meanwhile.
(c) Alternatively, if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews, to some French port in the West Indies—Martinique for instance—where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must, with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.
Finally, failing the above I have orders of His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships us from falling into German or Italian hands."
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