Comments by "Kat 1515" (@Kat-fq4ei) on "HistoryLegends"
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Between Mexico and the USA, both new nations in north America which developed from New Spain Territories and New England Colonies after three centuries of independence from the motherlands. None of these nations were invaded. Mexico claimed independence in 1821 following USA independence in 1776. The young Mexico Republic allowed Mexican land grants to Americans as settlers in Texas because during New Spains California, New Mexico and Texas territories were barely colonized by Spain during the 275 years Spanish Colonial Period 1598-1821, because these territories were very distant from other parts of NewSpain, isolated and barely financed by Spain. Spain did not colonize mainly because Spain never conquered the California and SW Indians and these New Spain territories were dangerous for colonists, Spain concerned over Indian revolts as what took place in isolated New Mexico with the 1680 Pueblo Revolt and massacre of Spanish Colonial settlers. Spain also was unable to make connecting roadways to Louisiana also part of New Spain, because of the feared Comanche in Texas. These distant northern New Spain territories served as outposts for Russian and French intrusion into Spains territories.
Fast forward to Mexican independence. Mexico claimed Spains lands which included the far northern territories California, New Mexico, Texas under its 1824 constitution as Spain never acknowledged Mexican independence or Treaty'd any lands to Mexico. Mexico needed to populate Texas as it was sparsely populated, hundreds of unconquered Comanche, and young Mexico accepted Americans to populate as settlers becoming Mexican citizens under Mexican law. Mexican politics, dictator Santa Ana, led to the Battle of Alamo between Texans and southern Mexicans, the final Battle of San Jacinto was a Texas conquest as Santa Ana was captured, leading to Texas independence, the Republic of Texas. Disputed land was unresolved between Texas and Mexico, which was not covered under the Treaty of Limits between Mexico and USA. The USA annexed Texas which of course now became part of USA. Disputed land of ten years unresolved. USA military set foot on the disputed land; Mexico claimed invasion and fired first shot, USA claimed US blood was shed on American soil by Mexico. Consequently the Mexican War. Fascinating history...
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@petermuniz9296 Ancient history. Mexico is derived from the mexica Aztec from Tenochtitlan, renamed Mexico City by Spain in the valley of Mexica which was only about 350 miles in size, surrounded by enemy tribes and many tribes not mexica Aztec. So the Mexica were/are just a very small fraction of natives in today's Mexico right about where Mexico City is. If not for Spain, mexica/ Mexico would be almost unheard of. If not for Spain, Mexico would never have become a nation. And the mexica would be a lost tribe amongst the multitude of tribes in what would, if not for Spain, who kept "Mexico" alive because of Mexico City in regular use as "Mexico City" was prominent in all of New Spain territories as the seat of Spains viceroy and established with catholicism, hospitals, schools, government buildings, big pockets etc. Totally influencal because of Spains great empire.
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@petermuniz9296 Mexico became a nation in 1824 under its constitution Estados Unidos Mexicanos. For 300 years before 1824 the lands, many territories from California to Florida, today's Mexico, Cuba, Central America, Phillipines, Caribbeans, Pacific Coast were New Spain controlled by Spain since the 1500s. Before that the lands were inhabited by hundreds of indigenous tribes all over what is today north America, with their own indigenous tribal names before there ever was a Mexico, USA, Canada.
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Wars had no rules. 25 years was nothing. The lands were Spains for 300 years. Poor looser over what... Nothing was taken, Chihuahuas and. Sonorans still had their lands, the US didn't want em. The border was hundreds miles out in the middle of nowhere wilderness. Californios, Nuevo Mexicanos and Tejanos still had their lands. And the Navaho, Apache, Ute, Comanche , Mohave, Chumash, Kiowa, Piaut plus other northern tribes hated Mexico on their inherent lands.
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More to your point and historically correct and stands to reason. Because "Mexico" stands for the mexica Aztec tribes. Their valley was renamed Mexico City by Spain, New Spain was separate territories and Mexico City was in the Kingdom of Mexico Territory. New Spain a caste system by Spain; Peninsulares were born in Spain, crillos were Spaniards born in New Spain, mestizo, Indio, mulatto. There were many non Aztec tribes from everywhere except Mexico City or Kingdom of Mexico Territory who did not identify as mexico, from other territories as Galacia, Yucatan, Nuevo Leon , Navarra, California, etc. Mexican was a much later identity except for those from Mexico City also referred to as valley of Mexico. Spain identified New Spains population by territorial location, not Mexico or Mexicans. For example, 1682 Diego DeVargas brought " Espanoles Mexicanos" as settlers in northern New Mexico, in the Territory of New Mexico, These were subjects of Colonial New Spain from "Mexico City" home to mexica Aztecs. They were Españoles from the mexica Aztec Territory. When Juan de Onate arrived in New Mexico 1598 he mentioned coming from New Spain. Mexico or Mexican is hardly heard of in Colonial New Spain. Genealogical Catholic birth records of that era are documented as born in New Spain or Spain, Españoles, mestizo. Not Mexican. During the 1810 political dynamics between New Spain and Spain "Mexico" was in its beginning but not inclusive of all New Spain. It was Mexico City and surrounding areas battling for independence from Spain. "Mexico's" first attempt towards independence, in its first constitution 1815, the far north, California, New Mexico and Texas New Spain territories are not Mexico. Even the Rio Grande tributaries did not sustain what is today Mexico or any Aztec tribe. The waters barely reached the outer edge of Chihuahua..
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Mexico claimed the land only 25 years prior to the Mexican War, under its Estados Unidos Mexicanos 1824 constitution. Under Mexico's first 1814 constitution of Apatzingan, CA, NM/AZ, TX were not Mexico. Mexico just barely a nation in 1846. Spain did not recognize Mexican independence and Spains Crown refused to sign the Treaty of Cordova 1821. So there was no Treaty of land transfers. You're making a mountain of a molehill, 25 years is nothing, and the annexed lands were not ancestrally Mexico. Additionally, Mexicans ancestral roots are not in today's USA. Mexicans migrated to border areas after the Mexican War with the USA westward movement. Not to be conflated with SW Spanish Colonial settlers who had been in the SW for centuries, most chose to stay in the USA homeland under the Treaty of GH. The USA is what attracted Mexicans to the north. They were a desert barren wilderness, uninhabited for centuries with northern tribes roaming the wilderness. The SW population, descendants of SW settlers are still there along with the indigenous tribes and are not complaining over annexed territories. It's some outsider Mexican factions who cry over lands never theirs to begin with...
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Texas became an independent Republic, neither Mexican or American. Texas later became part of the USA, no longer a republic, creating conflict on the Treaty of Limits which stared the War. 1700s disputed land was typical among Great Britain, USA, Spain, France, Russia--all sorts of treaties. Adams Onis Treaty was between Spain and the United States, had nothing to do with Mexico. Spain had expected to regain its lands after disputes with New Spain. And didn't sign the Treaty of Cordova. The Treaty of Limits was to clarify USA and Mexicos border, both nations piggybacking on the Adams Onis Treaty border. Texas Republic situation was neither here or there on the Treaty and the rest is history. Wars had no rules until WWII. The United States conquered Mexico and both nations agreed to the GH Treaty, purchase, border. With an additional Gadsden Purchase after the War..
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This sounds like speculation. Mexico was offered a buyer and refused; and Mexico could have refused the Austins American settlers initiated by Spain. Manifest Destiny was the desire. But conflicts with- in Mexico and Mexico destroying its constitution lead to the Alamo. In war, who's to say, anyone can win. All in all, the territories were not Mexico, historically, or even culturally or politically, and it was in the territories best interest to become US American. They were out in the middle of nowhere , the US had a vision for the land and Mexico was unable to control central Mexico much less the isolated distant north .. Mexicans lost nothing, they remained in their ancestral homelands in Chihuahua, Sonora, Sinaloa. The border was out in the wilderness unpopulated desert except for roaming warrior tribes. While the Californios, Nuevomexicanos and Tejanos remained in their homeland. And the northern unconquered Indians never acknowledged Mexico..
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Indians were nomads even at European intervention. Apache came from the north as the Navaho and have a commonality in the athabaskan language all the way to Alaska. Tribal brothers they were not. Apache tribes may have had genetic ties to Sonora, Talmahura , Sinaloa tribes who may have spoken the same language to a lesser degree but as for the Apache from what is today NewMexico, Comanche and Kiowa tribes, battled tribes into El Paso, Chihuahua, Durango, Sonora, Yaqui lands, killing pillaging and scalping until at least 1860. Indians all over north America for centuries banded into different enemy tribes and never were one indigenous nation or identified as as Mexican, American or Canadian, they identified to their tribes, Nations were formed, borders made boundaries, and they came under a national government and flag. Nomadic Indians just happened to be where they were when Europe came, 1500/1600s and who knows where they'd be today if not for the European . Exterminated nothing.... USA Indians today are sovereign nations, USA tribes get ridiculous amounts of federal funding annually, reparations to no end, protected under USA federal laws, Indian Acts and never had it so good. So I kinda think they'd be at a great disadvantage as Mexican Indians whom the government of Mexico continues to take their lands, to date. Which Jews in Germany have been gifted reparations? The truth is history is human violent atrocities for centuries. Had it not been the English, Spanish, French during the era of exploration, discovery, land claims and conquest. The Russian, Chinese or another nation would've done the same. In fact, the outnumbered European Spaniards conquered Montezuma because of enemy tribes who allied with Cortez. Many Pueblo tribes begged the Spanish to return after the 1680 Revolt for fear of the Apache and Navaho. Later the brown Comanche, were the superior tribe with no mercy and feared by all, would have exterminated the Pueblo of New Mexico if not for European Spaniard intervention. No utopia anywhere, and Indians would never go back to a stone age existence. Why judge a 16th century psyche with modern day lens. Justify history, no, but atrocities happened and no one, not even the Indians would want to return to their country of origin. Where would most go with centuries of migration land and sea. No one is really "native" in America. Historical events is where each of us is at today. Why cry over the past, we didn't even know our ancestors and all of us are descendants of slaves and lords over many centuries... Justify history, no. Anglo-Saxon USA founders knew how to create a great nation under democracy for and by the people, today all are equal under the law after a bumpy history, for this the world is piled up at our borders, illegally gaining entry to the racist white mans world.
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@quarefremeruntgentes This is ridiculous, historically speaking. Spain did not recognize its Spanish Colonial settlers as Mexican. Spains caste system was Peninsulares, born in Spain; crillos, children or offspring of Peninsulares born in New Spain; mestizo , mixed European and Indian, mulatto, of black mix.... but no Mexican. New Spain Catholic Church records from the Colonial era document those baptized/marriage/deaths in Spain or New Spain as Españoles, mestizo, Indio. But not Mexican.
You are totally way off in New Mexico , founded by Spain under J de Onate, a crillo Spaniard, establishing San Gabriel 1598 in northern NM and first capital in todays USA by Spanish settlers under Spains rule; ten years later the capital was moved to la villa de la santa fe de San Francisco de Assi, known as la villa or Santa Fe, back in 17, 18th centuries. All of this wording came from Spain, not the New World. 1680 the Pueblo Revolt and the Spanish were exciled away from the indigenous Pueblo Indians territories in northern NM after 80 years by the Indians, to uncolonized El Paso which was in New Mexico in the 1600s. El Paso was abandoned after the northern NM settlers left and was not in Texas at that time. These same Spanish colonists returned back to northern NM twelve years later under Gov Don Diego De Vargas from Spain in 1692 during which New Mexico was reconquered, resettled; with colonists, governors, towns, agriculture, vineyards, herds, European culture, soldiers, Church, Spanish land grants even awarded to conquered Pueblo Indian tribes. So to date, descendants of Spanish settlers have been in northern New Mexico for over 400 years, today USA. And non immigrants , rather are in their homeland.... The oldest continued USA government building, Palace of the Governor is in Santa Fe, the oldest annual festival in today's USA is in Santa Fe, la Fiesta de Santa Fe in honor of northern New Mexico patron saint, La Conquistadora, who returned with the Spanish after the Revolt. These were Peninsular or crillo governors and governed and controlled by the Crown of Spains viceroy in New Spain Mexico City, as well as all other many New Spain territories-- territories of California, Texas, Nueva Galacia, Nuevo Leon, Nuevo Estramadura, Mexico, Yucatan, Navarra , Cuba, today's Central America, Caribbeans, Philippines, Louisiana to Florida, etc. They all were governed in Mexico City by Spain and the viceroy.
New Mexico just one territory of many in New Spain, the Kingdom of NM was populated by Spanish settlers during the SW Spanish Colonial Period 1598-1821; followed by the very brief 26 year Mexican Period 1821-1846, Mexican citizenship; to become 1848 US Territorial Period and US citizens going into statehood 1912. There was no Mexican or Mexico until 1821 under Mexico's 1824 constitution of Estados Unidos Mexicanos. All citizens became "Mexican" in 1824, in what became the Republic of Mexico, including Anglo settlers who lived in the young Mexico... This isn't history 101, it's 6th grade history. And there is significant documentation by Spain on New Spain historical records during the 300 years Spanish Colonial era housed in museums and libraries in Spain, Mexico City, Santa Fe. The only "Mexico" when Spain invaded in what they named Vera Cruz 1519 was a couple hundreds miles inland, Tenochtitlan, Aztec Montezumas kingdom, renamed "Mexico City" by Spain. Tenochtitlan was mexica Aztec territory or valley of Mexico, limited to what is central Mexico today, Spain named this territory Mexico, (a no brainer as it was Aztec mexica territory) surrounded by many other territories. All claimed by Spain, one by one after each exploration over several decades. Aztec were basically Indians, not Mexicans... your Mexican version, probably taught by Chicano Studies history revionists, is totally upside down, inside out. By the way, Mexicans were not colonists in New Spain Spanish era, 1525 historically speaking, the European Spanish Peninsulares/crillos were the colonists..... The Aztec mexica indigenous were not in control of anything, Spain was the political rule, Church, finances, infrastructure, government, horses, weapons, settler. Not Mexicans...
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But all those US Americans fought in the Civil War, Spanish America War, WWI and all others. And supported by the USA as a nation of unity. Patriotic.
How Mexico were they to begin with.... Texas, California, New Mexico/Arizona terrories did not get involved with those parts of other New Spain territories in the Kingdom of Mexico Territory areas, Mexico Citys political dynamics, Hidalgo and Guerrero, New Spain independence revolutionists . Neither were California, Texas or New Mexico named as territories in Mexicos first constitution of 1815. Mexicos 1821 independence, Mexico City the heart and core, did not support these northern territories militarily or financially, never settled the northern territories with Mexicans after independence (Americans came west), or bothered to conquor the hundreds of tribes roaming the lands. Just claimed the lands and didn't control them. One point is northern Spanish colonial settlers inherent to the Territory of New Mexico refused the Mexican government to ally with the Mexican military to battle the Comanche, or even warn the government on upcoming Comanche raids in Chihuahua. In fact the Apache, Navajo, Ute, Pueblo, Mohave, Shasta, Piaut, Kiowa, Chumash, Comanche and hundreds of tribes never acknowledged Mexico or inherently knew themselves as Mexican. Also the Apache and Kiowa tribes battled Sonora, Sinaloa, Durango, Yaqui lands at least till the 1860s. Sure looks like they didn't incorporate themselves to Mexico, and Mexico didn't incorporate them into Mexico. Quasi territories except for taxes.. Mexican ancestry.,,, Californios, Nuevomexicanos, Tejanos were actually informed by Mexican officials after 1821, who transplanted to the remote isolated foreign north, that they were mandated Mexican citizenship. Mexican ancestry nothing. "Mexican" was a Johnnie come late, after 1821 in New Spains 260 history under Spains flag and stamp in the SW. Patriotism was an issue towards the young Mexican government. And loyalty was to Spain, the motherland... Bottom line, New Spain, which was many territories near and far, was not Mexico 1500s to 1800s... Chihuahuas, Sonorans Mexicans migrated north to border areas after the Mexican War approx 1880, establishing Mexican settlements along with Anglo Americans settlements on barren and unpopulated wilderness for centuries. By the way, it was the US Army who quelled the western Indians, placed in reservations, you might say incorporated them.....
Mexicans are immigrants to the USA.. what is Mexican ancestry anyway, there was no Mexico , Estados Unidos Mexicanos, until 1821. Mexicans are logically Mexican citizens from Mexico of European, Asian, Middle Eastern ancestry etc as well as indigenous. Just as US Americans. Citizens of the New World years past the 16th century..
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@eduardom.8766 being pedantic is because generally folks are very confused on SW History. Cross culture is not historical but goes back to the last century when Mexicans migrated more n more and influenced Spanish colonists in cities in the US west, becoming populated by Mexican American, outnumbering Tejanos and Californios. Except in northern NM, settlements since 1598, where Mexicans were not attracted to, as migrants in the 1800s. And the Spanish heritage was preserved and not culturally Mexican. The connection was the language. Until the last two decades Mexicans have infiltrated northern NM and the NM culture is dying out. Historical northern NM have been Americanized since the Territorial Period 1848 and cross cultured to Americans especially in populated cities for 150 years. But the culture historically is not Mexican. Folks are not immigrants, or identify as Mexican American, generally have identified as Spanish or Spanish American for the history. Not to conflate with Mexican American in southern NM who migrated in the 1800s and have connections, families in Mexico. But in time with mixing of cultures, Spanish north, Mexican south, primarily had been through education. And now, cultures are merged through US Americanization, same as cultural merging with Anglo, and other ethnic Americans. But anymore, 20 years, the landscape is illegal Mexican bringing their culture. As well the SW Indian has come together with other cultures even the northern NM Spanish, as historically in northern NM the Spanish and Indian lived separately and each preserved their heritage.
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As if Mexico didn't have dirty hands--too. Lol...On top of that, lost the war, lost land. USA had better gun's and better strategies and better finances. And a vision for the west, Polks Manifest Destiny - what a better way for CA the SW and its people. Who did Mexico have but traitors and just barely a nation in diapers.... No one from the annexed territories cried over Mexico which was gone in a blink of the eye, 25 years. Grow up, get over it. 200 years ago. You're just jealous over the gringo. It had been Spains land to begin with, had there been no independence, there'd be no Mexico. Spain had already negotiated with Austin on American settlements, the gringo, in Texas before independence and Mexico signed the Treaty of GH, plus 25 million dollars, all historical events, where we are today... lame excuses don't hold water..........
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THis is racist rubbish. The so called "Mexican" citizens of that time 1841-1848 and Indians living in California, New Mexico/Arizona, Texas were protected under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo to become USA citizens after 1848, Indians were placed in reservations after the US Army halted dangerous Indian raids on citizens and placed tribes under protection by the Bureau of indian Affairs , to date are protected under US Federal Law, tribes get insane funding annually and are sovereign nations. Genocide is ridiculous, lives lost in Indian battles in the late 1800s were not genocide, which is over stated. This comment is anti American propaganda. True Kit Carson probaby killed more Indians than any of Spains soldiers, Spain never conquered the northern tribes in 250 years. And Mexico's 25 years in CA, NM, TX barely had control over the lands which were autonomous and Mexico had zero control over the northern Indians tribes who battled and hated Mexico.. And mestizo was not even the culture in the far north as the Indian and Spanish typically did not mix and each lived separately and practiced their own culture. The Spanish lived in their towns and Indians lived either in a Pueblo or way off , unconquered tribes hundreds of miles away disconnected from the Spanish except for raids or captives.... So mestizo was not the culture in New Spains far northern territories as in Latin America...
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@Paul_ZK Your just a Mexican propagandist. Legally??? Spains laws in the 1500s legally were enforced in the New World. Spains laws and Spains great empire controlled the many separate territories, the natives, the Church, the lands. In New Spain which included the Caribbeans, Cuba, Philippines, Central America, today's Mexico, Florida which extended to todays Louisiana, todays SW-California to Texas. But especially so in the territories encompassing what is central Mexico today (Mexico City) as this was where Spains Vice Royal was politically seated to govern New Spain along with Spains Catholic Bishops who controlled all aspects of life and where the bulk of monies were lavishly spent, after all this was where the Aztec mexica tribe gold was found. The Republic of Mexico was a Johnny come very late 1824 to California and the SW. In fact the California and SW tribes NEVER knew themselves to be Mexicans in their inborn northern land's, this still stands to date. The tribes knew theIr inate lands which they fiercely protected. Take the Pueblo Indians who in 1682 chased the Spanish off (Pueblo Indian Revolt) their inherent lands to the south, todays Juarez, once off their lands the Pueblo didn't care where the Spanish went, ancient borders talk..... Don't conflate Spain with Mexico which were separate entities. Totally different governments. Mexico never had the power, influence, money, accomplishments that Spain once held. In fact there would be no Mexico if not for Spains 300 years developing what later became Mexico. It was Spain who renamed Aztec Tenochitlan, Mexico City after the.local mexica tribe, later to be known as the valley of Mexico which was not the home to all tribes, which were enemies, the valley was specific to the mexica tribe. And there would be no Mexico today if these first inland territories had not gained independence from Spain, these being the young Mexico's heart and core...
History did not begin in 1824 when Mexico became a nation as you assume. Back in 1517, when Cortez landed in Vera Cruz, there was no Mexico or Mexican, much less was there a Central America or United States SW that was ever Mexico. The English arrived in Jamestown not the United States in 1610, growing into English colonies.So there was no USA American. Neither historically or logically did early European settlers conquor a Mexico or United States. They were all just territories or colonies claimed by Spain or Great Britain. Historical events make todays world borders. Cry baby Mexican propagandists make a mountain of a mole hill, the Republic of Mexico claimed the SW for barely 25 years at the most. Russia claimed northern California before there was even a Mexico, France had claimed Texas, in fact Texas got its name from the Louisiana Caddo tribe many moons before there was ever a Mexican. Americans settled California, New Mexico/Arizona and Texas almost a century before immigrant Mexicanos migrated to border areas. In fact Mexicans ancestors are deep rooted in today's Mexico, not north of the border, United States. New Spain's territories were separated by up to over a thousand miles in distance, different cultures, peoples, tribes, geography, local politics, histories. It was the territories around central Mexico who went to war with Spain and gained independence, became Mexico. Mexico later tried imperialism into the far distant territories who were not inherently a part of the young Mexico. They were quasi unincorporated territories out in the middle of nowhere, self governed and basically answered to no one after Spains departure, yet included as provinces in Estados Unidos Mexicanos Constitution as citizens. Forced citizens. During the over two centuries SW Spanish Colonial Period 1598-1821, todays Spanish colonized SW was known as California, Nuevo Mexico, Tejas. They were not identified as Mexico except from 1824 to 1848, only ten years for Texas. The USA conquered all of Mexico during the Mexican War. Victor takes the spoils. Looks like you need a history lesson.
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