Comments by "Kat 1515" (@Kat-fq4ei) on "HistoryLegends"
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The annexed territories to begin with, were not historically Mexico. 26 years before the Mexican War, these lands belonged to Spain who did not recognize Mexican independence. Additionally the Spanish settlers from California, New Mexico/Arizona, Texas did not join Hidalgo against Spain or Mexico City political dynamics and battles toward independence from Spain. Mexico's first 1814 Constitution of Apatzingan did not recognize the far north California, New Mexico, or Texas as Mexico. Additionally Mexico's goverenment was not necessarily welcome in the far north territories, patriotism was an issue and the majority of the Spanish settler descendants Californios, Nuevomexicanos and Tejanos were given the choice to stay in the USA or transplant to Mexico under the Treaty, chose to remain in the historical homeland becoming USA citizens. 25 years does not make a Mexican which was born of mandated Mexican citizenship under Estados Unidos Mexicanos Constitution during the SW Mexican Period 1821-1846. New Spain was many territories separated by thousands of miles, far and wide -- California to Florida, Pacific Coast to Canada, today's Mexico, Central America, Cuba, Caribbeans, Phillipines , plus. New Spain had been governed by Spains viceroy in Mexico City and territories separated from New Spain in due time, little by little staring with Florida, Louisiana Purchase, Mexico, Central America, Texas Republic, today's SW, Cuba and on and on.
North Americans history did not began with Mexico ( Tenochtitlan later renamed Mexico City by Spain, today's central Mexico). Our history begins with many indigenous tribes who were never one nation or Mexican.
Our history is European claims; Spains territories and Great Britain colonies, French territories, Russian claims. New nations and independence from the mother lands starting with the USA 1776, land disputes, treaties, purchases, border changes, war, conquest, annexed lands.
Spain had claimed too much land; its focus, central government, financial power was Mexico City. It barely colonized or financed California, New Mexico, Texas which were difficult to colonize and basically very distant isolated outposts to guard Spains lands against French or Russian intrusion. Indians were unconquered and living conditions were too dangerous. Turn of the century, 1800s, Spain had given up Florida and Louisiana, and was in negotiations with Americans for land grant settlements in Texas, these were Spain/US borderlands. Spains priority was its war in Europe with France simultaneously fighting New Spain in today's central Mexico. No longer had deep pockets or a world power. If not for Mexican independence, the writing was on the wall, and Spain likely would have sold its USA borderlands it barely supported California, New Mexico, Texas to the USA.
SW Mexican Period, these were too far an isolated wilderness desert, and disconnected from central Mexico, were highly taxed with no return, automous and most likely were destined for USA lands. Who found the gold in 1849.... Actually it had been Mexican government officials who transplanted north after independence, not regular Sonorans or Sinaloans or other south of the border Mexicans. It was the USA that later attracted Mexicans to the north after centuries of thousands of miles of desolate lands untouched except by Indian roaming tribes from the north until Europe brought horses and weapons able to tackle barriers... war was never in history immoral and Mexico is no exception, war, conquest and loss is history throughout the world for centuries. In fact Mexico took it lands from Spain, the Crown never signed the Treaty of Cordova...Mexico helped itself to the territories from Central America to today's SW. You might say imperialism under its Constitution. The territories again were too much for Mexico , unlike Spain had no influence, finances, power, united government and had no control..
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@chicago618 To clarify my post, there is general misinformation regarding historical documentation involving CA, NM-AZ, TX as being lands that were Mexico. True, but typically folks, historians, writters disregard or are ignorant that this was just for a brief few 26 years. Mexico declared independence in 1821 after, at that time, battles ended with Spain. The Crown of Spain did not sign the Treaty of Cordova refusing to acknowledge independence. 1836 Treaty was signed by Spain after almos a decade and a half after Spain finally accepted independence. In between both Treaties were a series of military hostilities between the 1st Mexican Republic 1824 and Spain, Spain attempted to regain control over Mexico, Spain lost the final battle 1829 and a new Treaty was in order 1836 , Spain finally recognizing Mexico's independence. How independent was the young Mexico, European France had their hands in Mexico until 1860s... The Mexican Republic, Estados Unidos Mexicanos failed to gain control of Spains Cuba territory. Louisiana and Florida had been treatied or purchased by the USA and Mexico had no claim to them
The 1814 Apatzingan Constitution supports SW historians, Mexican Period 1821-1846. Prior to this Period, CA, NM/AZ, TX were not recognized as part of Mexico and were not identified as protected/benefited under the Apatzingan Constitution of that day. These territories were not Mexico's children at that time....
The United States colonists voted for independence except for Loyalists of Penn and S Carolina. Many New Spain colonists were loyalists to Spain, unpatriotic to Mexico. CA, NM, TX New Spain colonists did not vote for independence, nor did any other territory for that matter. Rather Californios, Nuevomexicanos and Tejanos were informed of Mexican citizenship after the fact of independence and 1824 Mexican Constitution naming them subjects of Estados Unidos Mexicanos. But 26 years later, upon United States conquest, they immediately knew of the change of government. The difference, they were closer to the United States than to central Mexico, of which they were pretty much strangers to. And had ties with Americans via Santa Fe Trail from Missouri commerce trade and American mountain fur traders. Estados Unidos Mexicanos did not inherit Spains lands as Spain in 1821 did not surrender its lands. By 1836 the Mexican Republic had claimed Spains lands on its own through Mexico's 1824 constitution basically mandating Mexican citizenship to Spains territories. 10 years later, Spain did not come to Mexico's rescue during the Mexican War against the USA. The USA colonies Independence grew, gained new territories; while many territories Spain had claimed were lost by Mexican Independence.
Many SW colonists were loyalists to Spain and rebelled Mexican authorities who they considered intruders. They did not join the independence cause. Historically the USA recognized Spains territories and its Spain/US borderlands. And recognized Mexican independence. In reality, Mexico had little control over CA, NM, TX. Additionally the unconquered tribes indigenous to the far north NewSpain-- Navajo, Ute, Shasta, Mohave, Piaut, Chumash, Kiowa Comanche plus hundreds more never accepted Mexico or the US as their sovereign. And as with the Spanish colonists , sided with the USA over Mexico. One example is Nuevomexicanos refusing central Mexico to alli with Mexico's army to battle the Comanche who slaughtered Chihuahua, Nuevomexicanos never did warn of the upcoming ferocious attacks. Californios, Nuevomexicanos, Tejanos were forced Mexican citizenship and like the Indians, inherently knew they were not Mexican just like the indigenous northern tribes. The Apache was in awe of the USA paying Mexico $15,000,000 for lands they inherently knew was not Mexico. And I will just circle back to my original post, CA and SW are not historically Mexico. It is historical events of the past resulting where all of us are today.
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@chicago618 To deconfuse, there is no record in the 1814 Apatzingan Constitution or as to your comparison analogy as you state, that "Mexico" of that day, was sovereign to territories that would become Mexico similar to the US. Based on documentation, the written record does not archive CA, NM, TX as Mexico in that Constitution.
The Treaty of Cordova 1821 is the first document to accept, between Spain and Mexico, what WILL become the First Mexican Empire. The record does not record the Crowns signature because Mexican Independence was rejected by Spain.
The 1824 Estados Unidos Mexicanos Constitution records the young Mexico's states and territories, which does record CA, NM, TX within Mexico. There is no documentation recorded on territories, or agreement of Spains transferring lands or waters to Mexico. The 1836 Santa Maria Calatrava Treaty does not document states, territories or boundaries.
The 1848 Treaty of G Hidalgo upon annexation of territories after the documented Mexican War, records in detail ; rivers, coast, ports, ocean, waters, landmarks, authoritative maps , boundary lines established between both nations. Clearly CA, NM, TX were within the Republic of Mexico, briefly, 1824-1848. But not ancestrally, as is typically assumed. Simply put, CA, NM, TX Mexican citizenship of 26 years is documentated and archived. Its referred to as the SW Mexican Period. No ambiguity. Its documentationed history. You can analyze all you want, but you cannot alter the record.
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Right. Mexicans didn't lose any land. They are still in Chihuahua or Sonora untouched by the USA. The Spanish colonists didn't lose the northern homeland of California, New Mexico/Arizona or Texas. Mandated Mexican citizenship for 25 years is not Mexican. And the Apache, Navajo, Ute, Shasta, Piaut, Kiowa, Caddo, Comanche, Pueblo tribes, plus, never acknowledged Mexico or identified as Mexican and neither culture identified as mestizo. The Spanish and Indian didn't mix as the Indians were unconquered except for the Pueblo. The loosers were those Chihuahuans who missed the US border as they were too far north, so many now only look north.
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@ericflores9201 it's you who needs to read a book or two and also take a look at New Spains maps. Cuba and Caribbeans were not under New Granada's viceroyalty and it was never stated that South America had been a part of New Spain, so you need to learn to read as well. The Philippines, regardless of whatever percent of blood ties to Spain, was nevertheless a territory of New Spain. Historically Mexicans have always prided themselves on their Indian blood significantly more than the Spanish blood, more accepting of Spain with current DNA tests, as most mestizo historically have negative attitudes towards the Spanish.... Mexico was established as a mestizo nation, Indian pride and let's not overlook Mexicos patron saint, rooted from the story of the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe who is really Tonantzin, the venerated to date, Aztec godess on Tepayac Hill, cemented worship into hearts and minds of the Mexican Indians and mestizos. . How about Mexicans hatred towards Spaniard Cortez and hatred for his indigenous lover and interpreter Malinche for betraying the Indians. Who knows where you get your upside down info, but it's not real history.
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Just a quick historical overview. It's not odd, it's misinformation. Southwest and Californios are not historically Mexico, as there was no Mexico or Mexican until 1824. SW history is 250 years--Spanish Colonial Period; and only 26 years Mexican Period during which typical Sonorans or Sinaloans or any one south of there did not typically colonize California, it was basically Mexican officials who transplanted north. After 1848, was the American Period and California statehood. Mexican are immigrants to California, their ancestral roots are south of the border. Migration began with the prosperous United States to their north after the Mexican War approx 1880s. They are immigrants.
Historical owners is history revionist propaganda. Keep in mind not to conflate Spanish colonists in the California homeland under Spains Spanish Colonial Periods rule ending in 1821, these colonists are protected US citizenship under the Treaty of G Hilalgo 1848 and non immigrants to the USA. South of the border Mexicans migrated to US border areas after 1880s. Also US indigenous northern tribes never acknowledged Mexico or Mexican in their inherent lands--Comanche, Navajo, Ute, Mohave. Shasta , Kiowa, Piaut , etc hundreds more. These have never identified as Mexican and never will..... Mexicans don't have a leg to stand on or justification when they hear these were not their tribes ancestral lands. The 1910 Mexican Revolution brought many, and deportation sent many back 1950s. 1960s Immigration Act brought millions and turn of 20th century open borders brought millions more illegally...
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The native USA tribes never had it as so good. The Apache, Navajo, Ute, Comanche Piaut, Kiowa, Shasta, Chumash, Pueblo, plus hundreds more northern tribes never were Mexican and today tribes receive ridiculous amounts of USA Federal funding annually, reparations, protected under Indian Laws in there sovereign lands with commercial enterprise, of which if they default the US feds will come to the rescue.
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1598 to 1821 was the SW Spanish Colonial Period starting in New Mexico/Arizona , Texas and then California. Arizona, part of New Mexico was not colonized. The colonists and towns were established by Spain as well as the settlers during a time when there was no Mexico or Mexican in what was know as New Spain comprised of many territories. It's easy enough to refer to a New Spain map prior to 1821 on the territories far and wide, claimed by Spain after decades of exploration, including Cuba, Phillipines, Caribbeans, when there was no Mexico in the 1500s. Spains caste system in New Spain were Peninsulares ( born in Spain), crillos ( children of Peninsulares born in America), mestizo ( mixed Spanish and Indian equal to metis born of French or English and Indian), Indian ( indigenous) and mulatto ( mixed Black). But no Mexican. So the colonizers in California, New Mexico, Texas were of Spains caste system not Mexico or Mexican.
1821 parts of New Spain territories gained independence to become Mexico, under its new constitution, Estados Unidos Mexicanos, Mexican citizenship after 300 years under Spains yolk. Mexicans did not colonize the territories of the Californios, Nuevomexicanos or Tejanos which became the SW 25 year Mexican Period 1821-1846. The Spanish population including Anglo American settlers were then mandated Mexican citizenship, while the indigenous were generally unconquered and didn't acknowledge Mexico, while some indians, under Spains era 1598-1821, had accepted colonialism, allied with the Spanish and even had a pact with Nuevomexicanos. These all became US citizens under the Treaty of G Hidalgo, stayed in the homeland, followed by the US Territorial Period. Later south of the border, Mexicans approx 1880 after the Mexican War, migrated from mostly from Chihuahua, Sonora, Sinaloa to US border areas establishing border towns in wilderness areas never populated which had been lands to indigenous tribes who raided and attacked, tapering off after the US Army overtook them and placed in reservations. Mexicans were a Johnny come late in American history, 1800s..and generally did not colonize today's SW or California during the brief Mexican Period...
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@HIDROGONIUMARINO Hard to determine what your talking about---who are we, they, them, that group are. Today, those from Mexico are Mexican citizens under Mexico's constitution since 1821. Those who broke away are Central American identified by their country. These from the SW are US Americans 1848. They were all separate explorations encompassing from 1519 to 1560, all became different Spains territories under New Spain along with Louisiana to Florida, Cuba, Pacific Coast to Canada, Caribbeans, Phillipines plus, far and wide. All governed by Spains viceroy. New Spain was never united as one nation. By and by after 300 years, territories, broke away from Spain and today fall under different nations and borders. The United States 1776 identified the new nation as United States of America because it was in the American continent. Mexico did not id as American, it name is Estados Unidos Mexicanos. The remote north SW was the homeland to Spanish Colonists since1598 who really never had roots in what is today Mexico. Some may have lived in Mexico City, Vera Cruz, Zacatecas for a few years, or headed to the far north just off the ship, these were early New World days. But they didn't have much connection with the Indians as in Mexico City. Mandated Mexican citizenship after Mexican independence 25 years and soon after became US citizens.
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