Comments by "LRRPFco52" (@LRRPFco52) on "Binkov's Battlegrounds"
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ANUSH SLAVEIKOV I know most people don't have any familiarity with aerospace concepts, applied physics, and the environmental conditions that aircraft are normally subjected to, so I'll point out something you might not be aware of.
As you increase in altitude, the air temperature gets very cold. At only 3000m above sea level, the air is already -5˚ C. At 7000m, it's roughly -24˚ C.
11000m, it's -56.5˚C
Not only that, but the F-35 development program was subjected to the same Mil-Std protocols for arctic basing requirements, and is being stationed in Alaska as we speak, just like the F-22 has been for many years now.
The F-35's RAM is more robust and weather-resilient than the F-22s, and F-22s have been operating from arctic conditions all this time.
The truth is that any aircraft that is going to fly into the Geopotential of the tropopause needs to be able to operate in -56.5˚ C ambient air. This area is where the F-35 likes to be. Even in hot climates, once it gets into the higher altitude bands, it might as well be in the arctic because these are extremely low temperatures.
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Again, F-35 has superior supersonic performance to every other fighter other than F-22 and PAK-FA (not operational). F-35, when using internal stores for initial stage of air dominance campaign, has no limits on speed and maximum design speed. Any aircraft with external stores can't meet its maximum speed or cruising speeds because of the drag associated with all the additional aerodynamic drag. They can only dash to a designed stores category limitation established in the testing of those configurations.
So all the premises about escapes and approaches, missile parameters, and closures are based on 1970s tactics again, with different planes, not the F-35. The F-35 has more speed available and super cruise (even though it was not designed for super cruise) than the F-15C, F-16C, MiG-29, MiG-35, Su-27, Su-30, and Su-35.
The problem with the open source perspective of aviation aficionados when trying to compare the F-35 with other modern aircraft is that they often get fixated on stealth, while overlooking super cruise with full internal stores. They also overlook the ability of the F-35 to carry external stores, and for commanders to choose how to mix their strike package for the opening of the air dominance campaign.
Example: A Task Force commander could structure his force of F-35s so that anywhere from half of them to 75% of them are carrying dirty. Guess what the external AMRAAM load out capacity of the F-35 is? 8, with the 4 additional internally. That changes tactics dramatically when you have 12 AMRAAMs per F-35A and even the USMC/UK B model.
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/bbq5g.jpg[/IMG]
While the initial stage is cluttered with certain assets that screw over your IADS sensors across the spectrum, the initial stage of approach of F-35 is flown dirty. Any defending MiGs or Sukhois that come into solutions get slavos of AMRAAMs fired at them, causing them to go defensive. You can shed your initial claws in the open as a dirty bird, then disappear from radar returns, with ground operators guessing where they are going based on last contacts, if they even had contacts.
Now you have however many F-35s there were out there, with their 4 internal AMRAAMs for the closer fight, and super cruise capability.
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Another fundamental flaw is that you're showing tactics from the early 1980s that date back to the F-4D and F-4E, not even tactics used by F-15A and F-15C. Even F-16C tactics from the 1980s are more developed than depicted in this simulated skirmish. F-22 and F-35 are a whole generation ahead of that. For starters, you don't need to fly in pairs, but even if you do, you are working for an offset flight or duo from a totally different aspect of the CAP zone.
With redundant means of communication not using active radar emissions, one group is able to provide targeting solutions for another, and you end up with missile launches from unexpected azimuths and elevations coming at you without a missile launch warning, because no active homing is being done until the very last terminal envelope of the missile salvo.
If you survive that with evasive maneuvers, you are now wondering what is happening, where are the threats, have bled energy, while none of the threats have bled energy or showed themselves. They can also provide solutions for missiles that are launched from not only other aircraft, but from land or sea-based system.
We've been pushing very hard for a huge generational gap starting in 1980 after USSR responded to the teen fighters with the Su-27 and MiG-29, and the US achieved that, while the USSR collapsed, then after about a decade, started trying to pick up the pieces and develop their Gen 4 birds into Gen 4+, while the US was already fielding Gen 5 F-22A and finalizing F-35 series.
The numbers gap is huge as well, with the US having thousands of different Gen 4 fighters, 187 F-22s, and thousands of F-35s planned. Most realistic scenarios for Russian side or nations with Russian Gen 4+ fighters would be something like 10 to 1 or 20 to 1, not even including other assets we have. Any air battle challenging US supremacy would be over before it was fought.
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@BertoxolusThePuzzled Sensors: JSF sensor web is so revolutionary, that they are often tasked like dedicated spy planes normally would be used, and can swing-role during that at any time during the sorties.
Costs: Nowhere near the $300 Billion acquisition budget has been spent yet, let alone anything approach a Trillion. The click-bait articles talking about over now trillion are estimates for the entire life of the program through the year 2073.
The US has only acquired roughly 500 JSF out of 790 delivered so far, and our program of record is 2,456 airframes between all 3 services, while the total program of record just keeps growing with foreign customers and partners.
Not even 4th Gen fighters are engaging in much WVR combat due to Helmet-HOBS missiles, which earlier generations of don’t work against JSF. JSF maneuverability is superior to almost all combat-configured fighters of the world if they decide to not use their missiles and try to engage in a 1950s-era guns fight, which hasn’t been done since 1979.
Climb rate and acceleration in F-35s is superb especially in the subsonic regime, and not that different than a Block 50 F-16C in supersonic regime. F-35s are far more lethal than any modern fighter within visual range at night, including the Typhoon or Rafale or F-22. NODS are integrated into the HMDS, so you don’t have to remove things like JHMCS and then attach NODs like in legacy fighters. UK Typhoons are getting an integrated Digital NODs/Helmet-Cueing Helmet Sight, but have nowhere near the 360 coverage of JSF, so they would be at a great disadvantage WVR at night against F-35s. Russians and Chinese don’t have anything like this and lag in those areas considerably.
JSF is an important component set in a multi-nodal network, and is the first fighter-shaped aircraft in history to deploy a space-sensor reaching suite. The JSF networked sensor web detects, tracks, and PIDs low earth orbit objects, which is one of the most overlooked things about its capabilities.
The F-35s minus all of that are still far superior to 4.5 Gen fighters because they don’t bolt on the necessary combat systems, they have the best fighter AESA in the world, the best multi-seeker 5.5 Gen combined IRST capability with the frontal DAS fused with the zoomable EOTS, which is fused with the AESA and RF passive sensors, and their fuel fractions surpass legacy fighters considerably.
All 4.5 Gen fighters are the actual relative garbage to JSF. I can break down the accurate and relevant math if you’ve made it this far.
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In this scenario, you would have protective cover of F-22A for the F-35A, who would be the strike package, with follow-on air dominance after ATG mission complete. F-22A flights with F-15C flights would be more realistic for the offensive CAP coverage. Numerical superiority combined with drastic training advantage for the attackers results in rapid eradication of Flankers that choose to enter the CAP skirmish area and parameters, as F-35A and F-15E prosecute the ground pound mission. You also have B-1, B-2, and Navy cruise missile flights entering the airspace at low altitude, with flexible mission profile and targeting based on the evolution of the battle.
Primary targets for the cruise missiles include SAMs, radars, airfield, and C3 nodes. There is another entirely overlooked US capability that we won't discuss online, but it overwhelms the enemy radar and sensor picture of the airspace in both the electronic and actual RCS parameters, while cruise missiles and penetrators ingress towards their targets.
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@NesconProductions Russia isn't fielding missiles with 2x the range of AIM-120. AIM-120D has the longest confirmed intercept of any AAM, even longer than AIM-54C.
Russia barely got R-77-1 AAMs into service over the past few years, with no known performance record on it.
Even if they had a superb LRAAM, it can't track what it can't see, while the huge RCS Flankers are tracked from take-off. They have lost 5 Su-30SMs, 1 Su-35S, and 9 Su-34s over Ukraine.
From missile wreckages, COTS US, Taiwanese, Japanese, French, and German electronics make up their missile guidance systems, including their new hypersonics.
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@NesconProductions USAF openly announced the new AIM-120D intercept record earlier this year, without stating the range, but that it was the longest demonstrated intercept in history.
My background is rooted in this field dating back to the 1970s, with places like AFFTC, White Sands, China Lake NWTC, Eglin AFB, and Point Mugu common to our permant assignment and TDY schedule.
PL-15 is supposed to be longer reach, but there haven't been any demonstrated or published tests with those missiles claiming realization of their theoretical ballistic profiles.
The Russians did finally reveal that in testing upgrades to their MiG-31BM and its BRAAMs, they shot down another MiG-31 accidentally during the tests, but it was nowhere near the maximum WEZ.
China just states that their missiles have better motors and guidance systems than the Russian garbage they have been sold (RVV-AE).
China also licensed Israeli SRAAMs with the Python-3, which is an extremely deadly WVR IR HOBS missile for sure.
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@NesconProductions Regarding range: The terminology we use in Defense Aerospace relative to fighters is "combat radius" or "mission radius", which is a very flexible metric dependent on many variables.
F-35C combat radius averages 100nm+ longer than the F-14D, which had more fuel efficient engines than the F-14A if setting up a low-speed BEARCAP patrol around the Carrier Battle Group.
Not only can and does the F-35C exceed that perimeter by 100+nm, but it also brings long-range strike back to the CVN that was lost with the A-6E and A-7E retirements decades ago. We lost that with the adoption of the Hornet and Super Hornet, though the SH has longer radius than the baby F/A-18s do.
For the strike mission profile, evading threat SAMs and their radars significantly reduces a legacy fighter’s strike radius because of multiple heading and altitude changes along the profile. F-35s don’t do this anywhere near as much since they compress the threat MEZ and detection bubbles dramatically.
F-35C especially has roughly 20,000lb of internal fuel, which no single engine fighter has ever had. For comparison, an F-16 is 7,000lb internal, while Super Hornets are 14,700lb and 13,760lb respectively for E and F models.
The F-35C carries all that fuel without any aerodynamic drag penalty, whereas all other 4th Gen fighters carry EFTs pretty much on every mission profile.
Russian and Chicom carrier-borne fighters have to take off with limited internal fuel and weapons, otherwise they can’t get safely airline off the deck (no catapults). They are a pathetic joke in comparison to the USN CVNs.
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The AMRAAM stands on the shoulders of the AIM-7E and AIM-7M SAHR missiles, which have been used extensively in SEA (most A2A kills in SEA were AIM-7E, much more than AIM-9). AIM-7M A2A kills account for most of the USAF F-15A/C record as well. 24 of the 32 F-15C A2A kills in Desert Storm were with AIM-7M. Israelis have used the AIM-7F against Syria with great effect.
The most notable thing about the AIM-7 is that it has been almost always employed Within Visual Range after a merge.
The AIM-120 is superior to the AIM-7, with lighter weapon weight, improved self-illuminating seeker, countermeasures, better rocket propellant behavior, and better agility for maneuvering targets. It has displayed a better Pk in operational use against 6 x MiG-29, 1 x Su-22, 1 x MiG-25, and 1 x J-21.
In contrast, the R-27 BVR missile that predates the R-77 has a terrible Pk record. At best, it's Pk is 4% if we include a proximity fuse detonation near an Eritrean MiG-29, that continued to fly and crashed upon landing attempt.
The US/NATO tested the R-27 extensively after gaining dozens of them from the East Germans. Against non-maneuvering and maneuvering drones, it almost never hit the targets in live-fire tests from the MiG-29A both off the coast of England and Florida.
This is the legacy that the R-77 is based on, and attempts to improve upon.
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Ernest Hemingway Yes, US fighter engines have been better than Russian engines since the F-86F. Russia had a British engine given to them (as a token of English hope in a peaceful future), which the Soviets mass-produced for the MiG-15. The MiG-15 had a better thrust-to-weight ratio than the F-86A-D models as a result. Brits had been working on jet engine tech before the US, as had the Germans.
The results? The US pushed ahead with the Century Series (F100, -101, -102, -104, -105, -106, -110, -111) fighters, advancing turbojet engine technology with the J57, J75, and J79, then ushering in a new era of afterburning turbofan fighter and bomber engine tech with the TF30 in the F-111 & F-14, as well as the GE F101 in the B-1A.
This later evolved into the Pratt & Whitney F100 and GE F110 afterburnung turbofans, which became the basis for the world-class Improved Performance Engines for the F-15, F-16, & later F-14A+/B/D.
If you track Soviet fighter engine technology from the 1950s through the 1970s, you had the R15, R25, & R35 Tumansky motors for the MiG-25, MiG-21, & MiG-23, all of which were turbojets.
The US already was using operational F-111A and F-14A fighters with afterburning turbofans by the late 1960s(F-111A), early 1970s(F-14A).
As the 4th Generation optimum bypass ratio F100 and F110 motors matured in the 1980s with DEEC, we already solicited GE and Pratt for the next generation engines for the ATF, which were the YF120 & YF-119.
The YF-120 actually was a generational leap ahead of the YF119, but still needed to be worked out since it was an adaptive/ variable cycle motor with fan stage placement modulation.
We can also look at the SR-71 & its unparalleled Pratt & Whitney J58 afterburning, compressor bleed turbojets. Russia has never duplicated anything remotely close to the SR-71 & its engines.
As we look at the IPE fleet of GE & Pratt motors in US and coalition fighters, they are the gold standard in performance and reliability.
In contrast, the Lyulka/NPO Saturn AL-31 motors in the Su-30MK are described as FOD-sensitive, maintenance-intensive engines that last maybe half the advertised service life.
Russia continues to work on trying to develop a new generation motor for the Su-57, & upon demonstrating an Su-57 at MAKS, one of the motors exploded with flames shooting out the rear in front of all of Russia's observers and customers.
Where Russia is currently at is producing attempts at 1980s tech the US skipped over. This was the VISTA/STOL/MATV programs of the late 1980s/early 1990s where test F-15s and F-16s were fitted with IPE core engines, but with 2D and later Multi-Axis Thrust-Vectoring nozzles controlled by an integrated DFLCS with FADEC so that the engines contribute to pitch, roll, and yaw along with the DFLCS.
The 3 driving forces behind US experiments with this technology were:
1. STOL for runways in Europe or any theater where runways might be attacked
2. Super-Maneuverability
3. Optimum Supersonic Maneuverability
We chose to invest in this tech in the ATF Lockheed variant, not on legacy 4th Gen fighters.
The JSF variant that won the competition didn't need TV since it has thrust well ahead of large tail surfaces.
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