Comments by "LRRPFco52" (@LRRPFco52) on "Forgotten Weapons"
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@gpheonix1 The German MachinenKarabinen were all carbines based on barrel length, not fitting any definition of rifles. Rifles typically had 24"-31.1" barrels. There were 24" barreled carbines even in the 1800s if the actions were short enough.
The MKb42(H) had a 14" barrel. M1 Carbine has a 17.75" barrel. In the first half of the 20th Century, most 20" barreled long guns were considered carbines.
We saw a shift in the 1950s with the 21" barrel FAL, 22" bbl M14, 17.7" bbl G3, 20" bbl AR-10, and 20" bbl AR-15 all referred to as "rifles". Especially with the flash hiders on the FAL and M14, they were long in overall length like a rifle, plus the bulky/ lengthy receivers of the FAL, G3, and AR-10 contributed to their overall lengths.
An M1 Carbine is tiny compared to a G3, even though the M1 Carbine's barrel is longer.
The AR-15 came from the Small Caliber High Velocity Rifle program, where several of the prototypes had longer barrels. One of the early AR-15 prototypes had a 22" barrel with a rather long flash hider.
With the 20" barrel AR-15 and the original Type A-E stocks, they all present like little carbines, not traditional rifles.
A more correct description of the M4 would be a Small Caliber High Velocity Carbine.
It's also interesting to note that the Russians have never classified the AK or AKM as rifles, but just Avtomat Kalashnikovs, while their rifles have Vintovka in the designation, i.e. Vintovka Mosina, SVT, SVD, etc. Exceptions to this are the VAL and VSS, which of course have tiny little barrels with large suppressors.
Their overall lengths are still in the carbine department.
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@MrBahjatt Yes, if we did a clean slate technical analysis and classification matrix, some interesting things rise to the surface.
1. Cartridge dimensions and performance
2. Barrel + muzzle device length
3. Action type
4. Feed mechanism
5. Fire Control Mechanism
6. Action length
7. Operating system
3 of the things that make the STG44 stand out from all the others are its fire control mechanism, rate of fire, and constant recoil system.
It's really nothing like an AK or AR-15, even though we place it in the same category of weapons.
Handling, ergonomics, and performance under fire are dramatically different with the STG44.
Also, the 7.62x39 intermediate cartridge doesn't behave much like 5.56x45mm. Recoil, velocity, terminal performance, trajectory, and effective range are noticeably different in the soldier's hands, as is carrying a combat load for each.
Even the 7.92x33mm with its larger case head, but shorter COL, is much easier to carry in magazines in pouches than the high tapered 7.62x39 and its cumbersome curved mags, with longer COL.
They're both intermediate cartridges with practically the same performance, but minute differences in case design and COL scale into noticeable consequences for the individual soldier and his squad.
I've maintained for years that 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm are Small Caliber High Velocity cartridges, which is at least a major subdivision within intermediate cartridges, if not another category of its own.
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Carbon-15 was doing well initially with sales. Bushmaster offered to buy the company, but the owner refused. Bushmaster then contacted Accusport, Ellett Brothers, and RSR Group ( 3 of the major firearms distributors of the time) and told them that if they carried Carbon-15, they would no longer carry Bushmaster. Bushmaster was the leading company for AR15 sales at the time (mid-1990s), and the 3 major distributors were making a killing selling Bushmaster AR15s.
Professional Ordnance was then limited in its market opportunity, and the guns were known for cracking lowers, bolts breaking, and failures associated with early learning curves as well as the nature of polymer.
Bushmaster came in after Professional Ordnance went under, and bought them for even less than the initial offering. They then manufactured an AR15-compatible Carbon-15 under the Bushmaster name and logo. Karma came around when Bushmaster sold out to Freedom Group, because Freedom Group basically gutted Bushmaster, shut down the Windham, Maine manufacturing, let the Bushmaster President/Owner go after 5 years, and retained the highly-valued Bushmaster name and logo (not that Bushmaster was a great AR15, but it had market recognition and sales that were excellent at the time).
Freedom Group continued to logo AR15s made using DPMS and Remington parts at the Ilion, New York facility, which is why you see current lowers marked that way today, with "D" marked BCGs.
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@keithjurena9319 We had FN M16A2s in Infantry OSUT at Benning, then when I got to my first unit, they still had M16A1s but with A2 furniture. That was in 1994. We turned in our A1s in fall of 1995 and drew out new M16A2s. I preferred the M16A1 due to the weight, balance, trigger, S-S-A FCG, shorter length, and handling. That was active duty US Army, no Reserves or ANG. I went to Korea after that, where we had A2s, then came back to the US at Fort Lewis, and turned in our M16A2s in fall of 1997, grew out brand new M4s right before going to Panama for JOTC.
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