Comments by "Nattygsbord" (@nattygsbord) on "Military History not Visualized"
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No George, this was not the strategy that the German used.
The idea behind a flexible defence in depth was to let the enemy overextent its supply lines during an advance, while your own troops are shortening it. And then you launch a great counterpunch and encircle and easily destroy your undersupplied enemy. This happened at Kharkov both in 1942 and in 1943.
But Hitler didn't like the idea because he was a man of the first world war, and his beliefs was that every man should be in the frontline instead. And all retreats should be forbidden. Not a step back would be allowed.
1943 started well for the Red Army: after the victory at Stalingrad, it had crossed two major rivers and driven 500 miles into the vast open spaces of the southern Soviet Union in a very short time and had become overstretched.
And the Germans had just evacuated the Caucausus with Army Group A, and the 1st and 4th Panzer Armies (which Hitler didn't wanna evacuate at first until Manstein convinced him, and had Hitlers initial decision been kept would probably had been left in the Caucausus and destroyed).
And few people assumed that the German army had any strenght left after the disaster at Stalingrad. And the Russian had pushed forward in the middle of february to try encircle and destroy what was left of Army group South, by coming from the north and pushing towards the black Sea.
And contrary to what you claim did the Germans have any mobile defence. On the contrary, Hitler strongly opposed the idea of retreating from the Donbass region - which Von Manstein wanted, in order to shorten his frontline and thereby get more men available for his counter-offensive in the north towards Kharkov.
Von Rundstedt had lost his job after outraging Hitler by suggesting the same thing a year earlier.
Hitler and Manstein argued against each other for 5 hours, and Hitler said that it was absolutly vital for the war effort to defend the area for the Ukrainian coal mines and the diplomatic relations with Turkey.
Manstein knew very little of the economic aspects of the war, but he responded that Hitlers choice was now to lose the Ukrainian coal mines with or without Army group Don.
And surprisingly did that argument finally convince Hitler to allow a retreat. And Manstein moved back and created a new frontline behind Mius river, and used the rest of his forces to launch a counter-offensive in the north around Kharkov. The overextended Russians were completly taken by surprised and the got outflanked encircled and destroyed.
And this battle gives a vital lesson of the importance of being economical with your forces. If you try to be strong everyware you will also be weak everyware, as Sun Tzu said. And it was Mansteins retreat and shortening of the frontline that gave him enough forces available for his succesful counterattack, even when the situation was dire.
And Germany could never hope to win a defensive war with Hitlers tactic of letting all troops sit at the frontline along the entire Russian front. Because the Russians were numerically superior and could counter the German all along the frontline and still have enough troops over to concentrate for offensives in certain areas - where the German defensives would probably the weakest.
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Fortifications was not useless. The Siegfried line did a good job of defending Germany against a large scale French attack during the invasion of Poland. And Patton and his superior forces failed to take Metz for months, despite their opposition was made up by some volksturm in old fortications from the 1800s.
And the unimpressive fortifications of the Mannerheim line served Finland very well during their wars against the Soviet union. And the many defensive lines in Italy prevented the allies from taking the country before the war ended.. and the Italian campaign was a failure for the allies in that sense that it didn't make the allied landings in France easier.
Instead the contrary was true, the allies had to commit disproportionally large amounts of troops to the fighting in Italy so less resources were available for the campaign in France.
So are fortifications a bad idea? no.
They are not that useful in themselves, but only an idiot would use fortications and minefields in that way.
No minefields, barbedwires, dragoon teeths, anti-tank mines, boobytraps, trenches and bunkers are best when they are used togheter with defending troops.
And they can tie up disproportionatly large enemy forces for a long time and thereby giving the defenders time to organize a defence or a counterattack. And meanwhile will the prepared defensive positions keep the own losses low, while they can inflict disproportionally high losses on the enemy.
Just ask the German machine gunner Heinrich Severloh, on Omaha beach. He killed 2000 Americans on D-day.
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If you think that statistics is the same thing as reality, then you are frankly not very smart.
Young men are more often victims to street violance than women and elderly. Why?
Because women and elderly knows that they are not as capable of defending themselves so they rather stay
at home and don't take any risks of getting hurt. So if eveyone then stayd home, then crime statistics would show low numbers, but would that mean that crime is not a problem? Of course not. Crime is so serious that people would stay home because they are afraid to go out.
So if people don't go out and make suicidal attacks against barbed wire and machine guns, that doesn't
mean that they are increadibly effective weapons on a first world war battlefield.
On the contrary. They were the driving force on how tactics were formed at this time, and all war-winning strategies had to adapt to this fact if there would be any hope of getting any success.
First world war was not a war mainly about artillery duels. It was a war when armies desperatly tried to find ways to silence enemy machine guns and pass through barbed wire... and solutions of all kinds were tested to fix this problem, like bomarding an area for an entire week with a million artillery shells.
"The way they got around the lack of communication was by massively pre-planning their artillery bombardments,
and by using extensive pre-registered defensive fire plans that could be initiated by the infantry simply firing a group of flares."
Armies tried these solutions, and they almost never worked.
Sometimes they failed because the enemy was sitting behind the front line or deep underneath the ground,
and the infantry would therefore not take any serious losses and could easily repulse any infantry attacks after the bombardment had started. You could of course keep on firing with your artillery once your own infantry had started attacking, but that would also lead to more losses among your own men as your artillery would accidentaly hit your own men.
Furthermore was timing of a bombarment very difficult to get right, as you don't know all the factors in the fog of war about the future weather, the enemy strength and such. So if your men attack too fast they get crushed by their own artillery, and if they cannot keep up with the time schedule then the artillery would be uneffective as well.
And in the early war years did Generals have to learn those lessons above the hard way. And gigantic battles with hundreds of thousands of men lost also failed for other reasons. Like the lack of High-explosives to destroy the barbed wirse in no mans land. And barbed wire was a huge problem. It is not just something you can fix with a little scissor. It was something nearly impossible to get rid of. And entire armies could stuck in front of it an not get through, while enemy machine guns ripped people apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hQ-otfHZx8
And even if your attack was succesful, then your biggest still lie ahead. How would you repulse an enemy counter attack?
In the first world war was a counter-attack the most powerful force on the battlefield. More powerful than defence or assualt. And the enemy was not stupid. He would see that you was about the breakthough at one part of the frontline, so he would concentrate more forces to the area.
So once your men had punched through the last line of defence, then he would swiftly launch a counter-attack before your men had a chance to rest and organize or dig yourself into the ground and get reinforcements.
He would bombard you with arty and then attack you. And your own artillery would be too far away behind to be of any help. And nor would you have any way of communicating and directing your artillery fire from such far ranges. And moving artillery up through the no-mans-land moonland scape was difficult and time consuming, and it would not be able to keep up with the attacking infantry.
So once the offensive had been done, there was really not much plans what to do next.
So the enemy always had all the good cards at his hands. And it was these counter-offensives that made the first world this war of largly static frontlines that it is known for.
Because every progress usally was destroyed as fast as it had been created.
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I think German thinking also have been poisoned by liberalism and anti-militarism.
It sees power and military force as something inheritibly bad. But rerality could not be further from the truth.
Power is in itself not evil. Power is the ability to do things, things which could either be good or bad. Just like a knife can be used for killing people, or saving peoples lives when it is in the hands of skilled surgeon. Cars can kill people in traffic accidents, but they can also be used as ambulances to save lives. Everything depends on how they are used. And the same goes with power, and military force.
Germany is scared of holding so much power in its hands... because it did not end up well when Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler had a powerful force in their hands.
But as I see it can the western would just choose to give up all its economic and military power if it wanted to. That would however not create peace and a better world. If we abdicate our leadership role and hand over the position as the worlds most powerful country to for example China and Russia, then they will certainly create a more evil and opressive world.
That is how they would use their power. They would use it to redraw borders and force people to become Russians or Chinese or being put inside concentration camps to die like Uighurs and Ukrainians.
The only thing stopping those evil regimes are western military and economical power and soft power.
Evil people in this world will not give up their power just because we do that.
So what is the least bad option, should we have the power, or should evil dictatorships have it instead?
I think that democracies have more self-restraint to use its power more responsibly, while dictators happily abuse their powers whenever they think they can get away with it.
Furthermore do I not think violance in self-defence is wrong.
There are evil people in this world. And just because you leave them alone, does not mean that they will leave you alone.
Jesus fed the hungry and cured diseases and preached love and never harmed anyone, but he ended up being nailed to a cross anyways. Using self-defence to protect oneself from unprovoced aggression is not wrong. Nor is it wrong to use violance to kill a crazy person that are killing innocent people left and right in a mass shooting.
Often times can the person not be talked into stop doing what he is doing, and then is force needed to protect innocent from being killed. And if the choice is between all good people dying nailed to a cross, or to use violance in self-defence to prevent evil people from taking over the world, then I pick the latter option.
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I think it is the duty of economic professors to be useful to society and talk about things that matter to the public instead of sitting locked inside their buildings and just drawing lines on a papper and doing maths. Personally I think that macroeconomics should be fun, and economics should be rather focused on problem-solving and giving people a general idea on how the world works so you as a citizen can make enlightened decisions and defend your own interests...anyways, I am getting off topic here
, so lets go back.
Economics of war is not a popular topic, maybe because it is a no-mans-land that no one wants to go into. This subject is too economic for historians, and too much based around history for economists.
But I don't think we should give up. I think all aspects should be covered so an attempt to a general understand of the war can be gained.
"Somehow economy science was able to study GDPs and other indicators through decades and centuries and to compare them between different states, despite "funny monies"
To pharaphrase Max Keiser, I would say that economics is not a hard science like physics, but more of a soft-science like psychology without any hard clearcut answers. The economy is based around humans, and humans are unpredictable things unlike atoms in a bottle.
Most numbers in economics are just arbritrary. How do you count inflation? How do you count unemployment? How do you count GDP? How do you measure poverty?
I mean some economists say you should include housing rents and energy into your measurement of inflation while other say you should not. Unemployment statistics also have lots of flaws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulu3SCAmeBA
And how do you measure poverty? when does someone count as poor? when they live on 1 dollar per day or less? or 2? or 5?
GDP comparisons between countries does never get perfect because of uncertainties surrounding exchange rates and purchasing power parities. And countries with private healthcare and school systems can seem to have higher GDP than countries, when those services provided for by the government and not counted into the GDP by some people. While others tries to do a guess work of their value to GDP - which is arbritrar as I said.
So to conclude do I think all numbers needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and not be taken to literarly to be the truth. And any economist that does think economics is a hard science is an idiot with hybris.
So does that mean that numbers are all useless? Not at all. They can often give you rough estimates about things. Like that USAs GDP is roughly 20-25% of the world economy, and that the income per head for the average American is about 20 times higher than an African, or that the standard of living in Africa today is about the same level as Europe in the 1700s and perhaps a little better. Just think about it, even poor people in rich countries have access to better healthcare than Roman emperors did in the past. When King Charles XII of Sweden nearly died from a cold in the late 1690s his doctor told him to piss in cup and put an egg in his urine and then eat the egg, and that was supposed to cure him from his disease. If that was the best healthcare a mighty King of Swedish empire could get when the country was at its hight of power, then
I definatly say that healthcare today for poor people today is much better.
So to conclude, do I think that GDP is good for rough estimates for things. Like comparing the size of the German economy with that of USA is like comparing the size of Jupiter with Saturn. And comparing the size of Swedens economy with Polands is like comparing the size of Mars and our planet and see that they are roughly similiar in size, eventhough the average pole is poorer than the average Swede.
And when comparing USA with Ghana, is like comparing the size of Jupiter with that of Pluto.
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@alexnderrrthewoke4479
"beating French legionaries all over the world"
I think google translate must have played a joke on you :P
"Ukraine is desperate for weapons and cache of munitions"
And so is Russia. There is a stalemate and a war of attrition has started. Can a sanctioned 3rd world country (Russia) win such a war against all the biggest economies in the world at the same time? - USA, Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, South Korea, Australia etc?
Nope.
Russia is running out of smart bombs and cannot easily build new ones because of the sanctions. It cannot repair tanks because of the sanctions.
Some sources say it is start running out of dumb ammo as well.
The Russian army call upon 50 year old beer belly dudes to serve in Ukraine - that is how desperate the manpower shortages are. You have begun to use T-62 tanks there - which are tanks which were considered outdated already back in the 1980s.
To me it seems like Russia is losing this war of attritition even before it has began.
Ukraine now gets MLRS and Leopard2 tanks - so time is rolling in their favor.
My advice to you is to pull out of this war while you can. You can lose this war with another 1000 destroyed Russian tanks or you can lose the war with no more Russian losses.
The choice is yours.
I used to think you Russians at least had common sense, unlike fanatical ISIS warriors and suicidal Japanese world war II soldiers.
But I am starting to have my doubts when you prolong this war and your unavoidable defeat.
You only cause suffering to yourself and doing yourself a big disservice.
Why are you even still in Ukraine? Is it because of pride? Well then I only got bad news for you.
You are going to lose the war anyways. I think you should just cut your losses and go home. Then you can start repairing the mess you created.
And why do you need more land? You already got 11 time zones of it. And even more of it will become useable thanks to global warming which will benefit Russia.
You are the largest country on the planet. You can lay your imperialism to rest.
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Russia will not have a happy economic future after this war regardless how it ends. Its santioned. The military needs to be completly rebuilt - which is not cheap. Its foreign assets are stolen and used for war reparations. The country will never fully recover from the past brain drain. The country have lost 200 thousand young men, and twice that number if you include men who have been severly injured and lost arms, legs eyes and so on.
And hundreds of thousands of men will become alcoholics traumatized by their war experiences and having PTSD and having problems with their work and their marriage. And along with alcoholism and drug problems comes criminality. Birthrates will also go south - not just by all deaths, and all injuries, and russians moving abroad in the braindrain,... but also because of all men who have to spend their years in the frontline instead of making kids.
Many men will never experience fatherhood, and many women will never get married because there are too few men left.
So Russia will continue to battle with falling birtrates and an ageing population.
Furthermore can Russia no longer keep much of its manufacturing base alive because it cannot export to western markets anymore, and russian consumers are too poor after the war. And foreign friends like India are less interested in buying russian military equipment after it have proven itself to be outdated worthless garbage. It was that in the six day war and in the wars in Iraq 1991 and 2003. But the Russians said that the Iraqi losses were terrible just because they had the old T-72M model of the tank, and if they had the better Russian version of T-72 then they would have fared much better.
Well the war in Ukraine did poke a hole in that myth, as even the most Russian versions of all their weapons are easily blown to pieces by western weapons.
And even if India have locked themselves in to Russian equipment thanks to a "sunk cost". Might they still wanna reconsider moving away from a dependency on Russia. Partly because the country is a weak loser and not valuable as a geo-strategic ally anymore. And partly because Russia now cannot import western components so it can build many advanced weapons anymore.
Russia have lost most of its car makers. Its airliners are facing hard times as their stolen western aircrafts are running out of spareparts - and after that do they no longer have any planes that they can fly passangers with from one part of Russia to another.
China and India is taking advantage of Russia and its cheap oil that generates only a marginal profit for russia.
And that is all that Russia can get from a resource that makes up over half of russias GDP. And just like with the economic problems Russia had in the 1990s after the fall of the Soviet Union, will Russia once again be extremely short on cash - and especially foreign cash.
Russia can try to sell more of its best high tech weapons to countries like China and India.
But just like China did reverse engineer and steal all technologies in how to make SU27 fighter jets, will they once again steal technologies from Russia and reverse engineer everything and steal every technology until there is nothing less to steal. And then will China eventually become more skillful and knowledgable than Russia in every field of technology and being able to build better things themselves, and then no longer feel any need to buy anything russian in the future.
And what can Russia do about it?
- Nothing.
- Oh well you can try to go to war with China of course with your badly battered army against a country with a 10 times larger population and the worlds 2nd largest economy. But I doubt you will win that war.
And with the economic problems will Russia more and more fall behind the rest of the world. China is building its own stealth fighters. And other countries are making their 6th generation fighters. But Russia is unable to even produce a 5th generation fighter. India have lost patience and have pulled out from their funding of that failed SU57 project. And nor are they interested in any T-14 Armata tanks.
And I cannot blame them. Had an American F22 used a F15 engine and put bolts and rivets on its wings then I would not call it a stealth fighter, and for the same reason do I not think that SU57 is a good stealth plane as its radar signature and generated heat is a joke for a stealth plane.
And the T-14 Armata tank lacks turret armor and can be penetrated there by just about anything, and it completly relies on cameras for the crew to see anything outside so if the tank gets its cameras knocked out by artillery fire it will become blind and useless on the battlefield. And its engine is old and weak, which is why its top speed is lower than Abrams and Challanger despite being 20 tonnes lighter.
Russia is falling behind the rest of the world technologically and its negative birthrate does further contribute to making this country very poor for decades to come.
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I think the German assesment was largely correct except the underestimation of the fighting morale of the Japanease troops.
Japan did not have the industrial capacity needed for a big war against modern military powers, and it is surprising that the country actully could do as well as it did the first months after pearl harbour with its many surprise attacks and amphibous landings.
The enemy was unprepared, and badly supplied with manpower and modern weapons while Japan had its battle-hardened military and element of surprise to throw at their allied enemies. But they would eventually run out of luck, as they were doomed to do sooner or later... and luckily for America did Japan lose their best card at their hand only a few months after the war started when Japan lost their many carriers at Midway in 1942. And after that the war was doomed to end badly for Japan ever after.
The only other 2 strong cards Japan had at their hand, one was the large concentration of force it already had in the pacific, while America still was chocked after the declaration of war from the Axis and was trying to gear up its military/government and industry for war. But that advantage was soon lost as well in late 1942 when Japan lost hundreds of aircrafts and transport ships in the battle for Guadacanal, which severly restricted their ability fo move troops and control the skies for the rest of the war.
And the last major trump card was the super-battleships that was lost in 1944 in the Leyte gulf battle.
In the end was Japan doomed to fail no matter what they did. It did not have any large population or industrial base that could come anyware near their enemies. It did manage to steal recource rich areas, but it did lack the transport ships for transporting it to Japan. And the technological gap between Japan and USA was huge, and the Japanease army was also pretty easy to crush for the Russians in 1945, even after the red army had been fighting bloody battles in Europe for years.
Japans resources was too small and fighting a land war in China and the pacific, while also getting involved in their air-sea battles was really too much for a poor backwards country. And the country would probably had been crushed much earlier if the war in Europe didn't get the much higher priority for the allies.
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Your post was boring, off-topic, and uninteresting so I decided to block you. I don't know if you are a troll, or simply a lamestream thinker incapable of seeing things from outside your own dogma. Anyways, this just feel like a waste of time arguing with someone who is like that.
"Ships are useless without seamen to sail them, mate."
I am not going to argue against someone who posts empety clichés - Fuck you idiot.
"There aren't any brilliant flanking maneuvers that can be carried out with poorly-equipped ships and there aren't any hills to defend. The history of fleet engagements is rather devoid of upsets. The smaller fleet may win, but the inexperienced fleet never does."
Yes, if we do like you do and choose to ignore the evidence of the contrary. I just mentioned the battle of Svensksund 1790 where the Swedes won an amazing victory against a superior force thanks to a schoolbook example of an double envelopment.
If Cannae is the ideal of an double envelopment which all strategists at land warfare tries to emulate, then Svensksund is the ideal for admirals at sea.
"France had not actually defeated an English battlefleet in generations. The Chesapeake was a tactical draw that enabled a victory on land, nothing more."
Once again, we can reach your conclusion if we do like you and close our eyes to the facts that proves the opposite. Fucktard.
Bantry Bay, 1689
Beachy Head, 1690
Lagos, 1693
St. John, 1696
The Lizard, 1707
Minorca, 1756
Sadras, 1782
Providien, 1782
First Algeciras, 1801
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