Comments by "Historia, Magistra Vitae" (@Historia.Magistra.Vitae.) on "The Majority Report w/ Sam Seder"
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@UsmanArshad-qv5nt " Fascism's origin is based on the fear of Marxism or socialism which was inspired from neighbouring Soviet as people post WWI were frustrated with low wages and extreme exploitations at the hands of corporates. "
Fascism didn't "fear" Marxism. They specifically though that Marxism was doing socialism wrong, and that using National Syndicalism was the proper way to bring about a socialist society. Mussolini was one of the first to comingle the phrase fascism with syndicalism, remarking in the early 1920s that “Fascist syndicalism is national and productivistic… in a national society in which labor becomes a joy, an object of pride and a title to nobility.” Most Italian syndicalists viewed social revolution as a means for rapid transformation to provide “superior productivity,” and if this economic abundance failed to occur, there could be no meaningful social change. The emphasis by syndicalists towards the importance of “producerism” had been originally initiated by Sorel in 1907, who argued that “Marx considers that a revolution by a proletariat of producers who [have] acquired economic capacity.” When Carlo Cafiero developed a compendium for the initial volume of Capital in Italian, Marx reminded his colleague that “material conditions necessary for the emancipation of the proletariat” must be “spontaneously generated by the development of capitalism (den Gang der kapitalistischen Produktion).”
The support for the theory of producerism expanded among Fascist syndicalists after the conclusion of the Russian Civil War and transition from war communism showed high unemployment and an environment where “most of the mills and factories were at a standstill; mines and collieries were wrecked and flooded.”
After the introduction of the New Economic Policy (NEP), Italian syndicalists continued to move further away from orthodox Marxism, determined to revise it to fit the changing times and to embolden its strategic goals. They argued that the Russian Bolsheviks had failed to adhere to Engels’ 1850 admonition about the dangers of trying to establish a social revolution within an economically backwards environment. This drift had emerged years before the economic malaise of Soviet Russia, prompting most Italian syndicalists to transcend the errors and drawbacks that “they believed they found in orthodox Marxism.” Developed to bring about worker control of the means of production by direct action, the intellectuals of syndicalism came to the realization that Italy's primitive economy could facilitate neither equality nor abundance for society. Without a mature industry developed by the bourgeois, they came to understand that a successful social revolution required the support of “classless” revolutionaries. Mussolini, along with Italian syndicalists, Nationalists and Futurists, contended that those revolutionaries would be Fascists, not Marxists or some other ideology. According to Mussolini and other syndicalist theoreticians, Fascism would be “the socialism of ‘proletarian nations.’”
Fascist syndicalists also became preoccupied with the idea of increasing production instead of simply establishing a redistributive economic structure. Sergio Panunzio, a major theoretician of Italian Fascism and syndicalism, believed that Syndicalists were producerists, rather than distributionists. In his criticism of the Bolsheviks’ handling of their economy, Panunzio also asserted that Russian Soviet state had become a “dictatorship over the proletariat, and not of the proletariat.”
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@UsmanArshad-qv5nt "Mousilini and others never wanted socialism"
Wrong. They specifically did, and Mussolini himself was a devout socialist.
"For this I have been and am a socialist. The accusation of inconsistency has no foundation. My conduct has always been straight in the sense of looking at the substance of things and not to the form. I adapted socialisticamente to reality. As the evolution of society belied many of the prophecies of Marx, the true socialism folded from possible to probable. The only feasible socialism socialisticamente is corporatism, confluence, balance and justice interests compared to the collective interest. "
- As quoted in “Soliloquy for ‘freedom’ Trimellone island”, on the Italian Island of Trimelone, journalist Ivanoe Fossani, one of the last interviews of Mussolini, March 20, 1945,
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@UsmanArshad-qv5nt "Mousilini was never been a socialist by his actions and beliefs."
Wrong. Mussolini was always a socialist, by his actions, words and beliefs. He started out as a Marxist, and was accepted by his socialist peers as a Marxist theoretician. He rose to leadership in the Italian Socialist Party at least in part on the basis of his recognized capacity as a socialist intellectual. Then he understood that in order to have a socialist society, Marxism is not the proper way, which is why he turned to revolutionary National Syndicalism, which he adapted from a French Marxist, known as Georges Sorel.
"I owe most to Georges Sorel. This master of syndicalism by his rough theories of revolutionary tactics has contributed most to form the discipline, energy and power of the fascist cohorts."
- As Quoted in The New Inquisitions: Heretic-Hunting and the Intellectual Origins of Modern Totalitarianism, Arthur Versluis, Oxford University Press (2006)
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"Fascism is hyperpatriotic ultra-nationalistic militant right-wing populism."
Except Fascism had nothing to do with Right wing of any kind whatsoever. Fascism was a totalitarian far-left, socialist 3rd position ideology based on National Syndicalism which they adapted from a French Marxist, known as Georges Sorel. It rejected individualism, capitalism, liberalism, democracy, and marxist interpretation of socialism ("class warfare"). Instead, it advocated for class collaboration where the means of production was organized by national worker syndicals (i.e. trade unions / Fascist Corporatism), and the guiding philosophy of the state was Actual Idealism (Neo-Hegelianism).
Being an outgrowth of Sorelian Syndicalism, (which itself was an outgrowth from Marxist socialism), its idea was that society would be consolidated (i.e., incorporated) into syndicates (in the Italian context, fascio/fasci) which would be regulated by and serve as organs for the State, or "embody" the State (corpus = body). The purpose was the centralization and synchronization of society under the State, as an end unto itself. To quote Mussolini's infamous aphorism: "All within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State."
As finalized by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile ("the Doctrine of Fascism"), Fascism came from the belief that the "Stateless and Classless society" Communism calls for after its "dictatorship of the proletariat" cannot be achieved, and that only the State can properly organize a socialist society. Therefore, Fascism cared about unity in a strong central government with society being brought together by syndicalist organizations obedient to the State.
[01] "La Dottrina Del Fascismo / the Doctrine of Fascism", by Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile
[02] "Che cosa è il Fascismo: Discorsi e polemiche / Origins and Doctrine of Fascism", by Giovanni Gentile
[03] "the Philosophy of Fascism", by Mario Palmieri
[04] "Fascism: An Informal Introduction to Its Theory and Practice", by Renzo De Felice
[05] "Mussolini's Intellectuals", by A. James Gregor
[06] "La Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni", by Rabaglietti Giuseppe & Sergio Panunzio
[07] "Teoria generale dello Stato Fascista", by Sergio Panunzio
[08] "The Birth of Fascist Ideology" by Zeev Sternhell
[09] Any work from Emilio Gentile
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@gary2kr1 " Fascism is a direct inevitable reaction to capitalism."
Wrong. Fascism was a reaction to failing Marxism under Lenin, which made many turn into syndicalism. Mussolini was one of the first to comingle the phrase fascism with syndicalism, remarking in the early 1920s that “Fascist syndicalism is national and productivistic… in a national society in which labor becomes a joy, an object of pride and a title to nobility.” Most Italian syndicalists viewed social revolution as a means for rapid transformation to provide “superior productivity,” and if this economic abundance failed to occur, there could be no meaningful social change. The emphasis by syndicalists towards the importance of “producerism” had been originally initiated by Sorel in 1907, who argued that “Marx considers that a revolution by a proletariat of producers who [have] acquired economic capacity.” When Carlo Cafiero developed a compendium for the initial volume of Capital in Italian, Marx reminded his colleague that “material conditions necessary for the emancipation of the proletariat” must be “spontaneously generated by the development of capitalism (den Gang der kapitalistischen Produktion).”
The support for the theory of producerism expanded among Fascist syndicalists after the conclusion of the Russian Civil War and transition from war communism showed high unemployment and an environment where “most of the mills and factories were at a standstill; mines and collieries were wrecked and flooded.”
After the introduction of the New Economic Policy (NEP), Italian syndicalists continued to move further away from orthodox Marxism, determined to revise it to fit the changing times and to embolden its strategic goals. They argued that the Russian Bolsheviks had failed to adhere to Engels’ 1850 admonition about the dangers of trying to establish a social revolution within an economically backwards environment. This drift had emerged years before the economic malaise of Soviet Russia, prompting most Italian syndicalists to transcend the errors and drawbacks that “they believed they found in orthodox Marxism.” Developed to bring about worker control of the means of production by direct action, the intellectuals of syndicalism came to the realization that Italy's primitive economy could facilitate neither equality nor abundance for society. Without a mature industry developed by the bourgeois, they came to understand that a successful social revolution required the support of “classless” revolutionaries. Mussolini, along with Italian syndicalists, Nationalists and Futurists, contended that those revolutionaries would be Fascists, not Marxists or some other ideology. According to Mussolini and other syndicalist theoreticians, Fascism would be “the socialism of ‘proletarian nations.’”
Fascist syndicalists also became preoccupied with the idea of increasing production instead of simply establishing a redistributive economic structure. Sergio Panunzio, a major theoretician of Italian Fascism and syndicalism, believed that Syndicalists were producerists, rather than distributionists. In his criticism of the Bolsheviks’ handling of their economy, Panunzio also asserted that Russian Soviet state had become a “dictatorship over the proletariat, and not of the proletariat.”
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@gary2kr1 "the cult of traditionalism"
Not just any traditionalism. The whole point was to emulate the Roman Empire, where the State apparatus would be Caesar.
"Fascism means, in fact, the return to Order, to Authority, to Law; the return to the Roman conception of human Society, conception which those centuries of oblivion could obscure but never efface. ... Fascism is, in other words, intimately connected to Roman; its mission is the continuation of the mission of Rome; its heritage is the legacy of Rome. ...There are some things Rome symbolized in the golden age of its glory which were and still are of supreme significance to mankind; things of the spirit of an eternal and absolute value which Fascism wants restored to their rightful supremacy."
- the Philosophy of Fascism, Mario Palmieri, 1936
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"Samuel Rosander: Also, when someone tries to push the narrative that fascism is "a form of socialism (but..but..not the MARXIST form)," or other nonsense about how fascism is in any way a left-leaning system or doctrine...ask them what, EXACTLY, it has that distinguishes it as such. Not just one or two things it has in common, or the common claim that "fascism was born from socialism" (it was, but primitive communism was the first form of government, and all other forms were "born" from that, yet monarchy and other anti-communal forms of government are not forms of communism, primitive or otherwise), but structurally and ideologically, what puts it into the category that they claim."
Fascism was a political and economic system that rejected capitalism, liberalism/democracy, and communism, in which the means of production were organized by national worker syndicals (i.e. trade unions), and the guiding philosophy of the state was Actual Idealism. Fascism was one of the branches of socialism, which advocated for centralized/planned economy, big government and government control over economy, businesses and people's personal liberties such as private property. Fascism opposed liberal capitalism, but also international socialism, hence the concept of a “third way,” their centralized economic policies obeyed collectivist and socialist principles, openly opposing capitalism and the free market, favoring nationalism and autarchy.
You won't be able to understand fascism without first understanding corporatism, syndicalism, and socialism, because fascism is essentially a combination of those three philosophies. Fascism is an extension of Marxist philosophy. Giovanni Gentile, who was a student of Karl Marx, concluded that Marxism was an untenable philosophy to base a new government on, therefore using Marxist philosophy as a base, he evolved the concept into a more centralized organization where the government was the center of all authority. So Fascism is based on the idea that the Government are the People and the call to Nationalism is actually a call to the authority of the Government.
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"Samuel Rosander: For example, all branches of socialism (not just Marxian) have, at their core, which is to say, THE BASIS OF THEIR DOCTRINE THAT DEFINES THEM AS SOCIALIST, communal democracy and some degree of mutualism. Ask them to explain why fascism falls into that category, particularly when Mussolini explicitly said that fascism is anti-democratic and places everyone as subservient to the (totalitarian, per his words) state."
Socialism has nothing to do with democracy. Socialism is an economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Or simply, it advocates for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.
"Some still ask of us: what do you want? We answer with three words that summon up our entire program. Here they are…Italy, Republic, Socialization... Socialization is no other than the implantation of Italian Socialism…“
— Benito Mussolini, Speech given by Mussolini to a group of Milanese Fascist veterans (October 14, 1944)
The philosopher behind Mussolini's ideology, Giovanni Gentile, believed that all private action should be oriented to serve society. He was against individualism, for him there was no distinction between private and public interest. In his economic postulates, he defended compulsory state corporatism, wanting to impose an autarkic state (basically the same recipe that Hitler would use years later). A basic aspect of Gentile’s logic is that liberal democracy was harmful because it was focused on the individual which led to selfishness. He defended “true democracy” in which the individual should be subordinated to the State. In that sense, he promoted planned economies in which it was the government that determined what, how much, and how to produce.
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