Comments by "SkyRiver" (@SkyRiver1) on "Secular Talk"
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@DraconianPolicy In my view the bases from which the people, at a fair for instance, would arrive at their individual estimates of the number of jelly beans in a large urn is subjective also.
They have no real objective measure either of the total volume of the urn or the volume taken up by each bean.
It is a guess based on limited, though unobscurated perception, and no real possibility of actual measurement.
This is a phenomenon that is noted by the emerging field of epigenetics. Pardon the pun.
So we have an actual situation wherein ants are able to function as an efficient colony, or humans are able to make the most accurate estimate of the number of beans by the average of all guesses.
If you are interested in an entertaining exposition of same, Radio Lab did a show about this entitled Epigenetics, or something like that, .
If the result obtained by the mean of all the guesses were dependent on some form of objective measurement, then of course your objection would be valid. However this is not the case.
This phenomenon would be equally in effect in a voting process that determined the goals and objectives of a government {not the winning candidate} when such choices were presented to the public without any spin of any kind.
For instance instead of voting for a person, all voting would be upon issues such as. "What percentage of the national budget should be spent on the military?" With a blank space in the ballot were a citizen could provide a percentage they believe to be appropriate.
Remember: this citizen has not been subjected to any disinformation or propaganda, or even any idiotic pundit spin, just such facts as are available at the time, without "expert" prognostication about the resulting impact of various outcomes.
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@DraconianPolicy Certainly though it can be said that there is no correct answer to such questions as that about the military budget, it could be seen that outlier answers such as "We should spend one hundred percent of the national budget on defense", will be balanced out by both the mass of opinion and the outlier opinions on the opposite end of such a continuum.
It really doesn't matter to the mechanism in play if there is an objectively correct answer. This will still provide the best possible option at a higher rate than any other method that can be employed.
You bring up the objection that everyone will be bringing their own prejudices to their personal opinions when they vote. Thus the death penalty for anyone that propagates falsehood or unsubstantiated news as facts.
Try to imagine a culture that is not awash in disinformation and propaganda by various interests. One were the pundits, instead of filling up air time with what will increase advertising revenue, will simply say, "I don't know." or "This matter is unknown or still in question." when addressing any issue that is not a proven fact. (Strangely reminds me of the Platonic debate as to whether new poetic forms would lead to the degeneration of society.}
As long as the populace is not immersed in disinformation from which they form their opinions, their individual attitudes will only serve to insure the effectiveness of the results of such questions.
Though really this "democracy really works, but not why you think it does" proposition is a minor and really fungible element of the Techno-Neo Confucian course that I have proposed.
We presently live in a world were some governments call themselves democracies and some communist, but the reality is that in both cases, with few exceptions, they are both functionally fascist.
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News flash: CNN, MSNBC, and the usual suspects report:. . . In the primary
race between Sanders and Buttigieg, Pete came in second over all, while
Sanders came in next to last.
Democracy and the so called representative democracy, democratic republic or constitutional republic are very different things.
They are forms of democracy. In most cases minus the democracy part. When people blithely state that we live in a democracy it is incorrect and misleading, like most of the paradigms that the public is continually bombarded with via the corporate news.
A republic is just a way for the plutocrats to stay in power and still have people think they are in a participatory democracy. The only democracy in US government is is that of congress, and they are 98% owned by the power-elite that decide who will run and fund their reelection campaigns with the legalized bribes of their campaign contributions.
There is representation, but not for you and me. We live in a farce. Are you not paying attention? Do you think that this cheating is something new? Your "representatives" are not there to represent you, they are there for the most part to make sure that the voices of the people never get heard, and if they get heard to never be acted upon. Or if they are once in a blue moon forced by popular uprising to act for the people, soon as the masses disperse they will dismember the body that threatened their power one discontent at a time, jailed, disappeared, or simply smeared and ignored by the corporate media. Have you not been present? Look around. . . .
Real democracy, true democracy exists nowhere on earth other than present day Switzerland and never has (that I am aware of). Representative democracy is a convoluted fraudulent conception. Democracy is something that we are continually told we have, which we do not.
We have democracy in the same sense that the slaves, women, citizens without land, and foreigners had a democracy in the golden age of Athens. Only they knew that they did not have a vote or any real participation in the government. Most Americans do not know that.
It should be obvious to anybody with the slightest ability to perceive what is actually going on that this is a conceptual illusion that is used to mislead and quell the disenfranchised mob. Bring on the super-delegates, the Iowa national delegate formula, the electoral collage, the PACz and Citizens United -- a democracy would not abide these contaminants, or entertain their adoption for even a moment.
A democracy and the state we live in are two very different things. In a democracy the one with the most votes is not the loser like in the USA. The courts have decided that even determination of who will be the candidates, such as occurs in the legendary smoke filled rooms of the DNC and RNC has no legal obligation to be fair or democratic in our two party system. . . . ???????
We live in a kleptocracy with a democratic shroud over it, and most people, like almost all people, do not understand how their rights and money are being stolen from them by corporate pilferage and plunder. In fact our present government is functionally a cryptofascist kleptocracy in which all real power, control of the men with guns and uniforms, the state, and the economy is held by a small group of lying psychopaths. Like Robert Mercer,, the Koch brother, Bezos and the mob of banksters that suck up the wealth of the nation like vampires and offer nothing but bullshit and corruption in return.
And you CNN, are a big part of it. In fact people will come to recognize that you are a key member of the new axis of evil. FaceBook -- Buttigieg -- CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfQ7Zo6m9yg
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Now your doing the "fuckery" thing too. Fuckery is not a word. And even if it was a word, how does it reflect on one's relationship to fucking if you use it as a negative. Think about it, every culture has a category of words they use as "curses" like in France most are connected to Religion or the Catholic church, like the exclamation of "Hotsi" which means the sacred host, or another one means god made of pubic hair, but in the good old USA it is sex that becomes the curses. This indicated a society that is sexually demented.
Try: fraud, deceit, cheating, flimflam, treachery, etc. You can do it, you can use a real word.
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News flash: CNN, MSNBC, and the usual suspects report:. . . In the primary
race between Sanders and Buttigieg, Pete came in second over all, while
Sanders came in next to last.
Democracy and the so called representative democracy, democratic republic or constitutional republic are very different things.
They are forms of democracy. In most cases minus the democracy part. When people blithely state that we live in a democracy it is incorrect and misleading, like most of the paradigms that the public is continually bombarded with via the corporate news.
A republic is just a way for the plutocrats to stay in power and still have people think they are in a participatory democracy. The only democracy in US government is is that of congress, and they are 98% owned by the power-elite that decide who will run and fund their reelection campaigns with the legalized bribes of their campaign contributions.
There is representation, but not for you and me. We live in a farce. Are you not paying attention? Do you think that this cheating is something new? Your "representatives" are not there to represent you, they are there for the most part to make sure that the voices of the people never get heard, and if they get heard to never be acted upon. Or if they are once in a blue moon forced by popular uprising to act for the people, soon as the masses disperse they will dismember the body that threatened their power one discontent at a time, jailed, disappeared, or simply smeared and ignored by the corporate media. Have you not been present? Look around. . . .
Real democracy, true democracy exists nowhere on earth other than present day Switzerland and never has (that I am aware of). Representative democracy is a convoluted fraudulent conception. Democracy is something that we are continually told we have, which we do not.
We have democracy in the same sense that the slaves, women, citizens without land, and foreigners had a democracy in the golden age of Athens. Only they knew that they did not have a vote or any real participation in the government. Most Americans do not know that.
It should be obvious to anybody with the slightest ability to perceive what is actually going on that this is a conceptual illusion that is used to mislead and quell the disenfranchised mob. Bring on the super-delegates, the Iowa national delegate formula, the electoral collage, the PACz and Citizens United -- a democracy would not abide these contaminants, or entertain their adoption for even a moment.
A democracy and the state we live in are two very different things. In a democracy the one with the most votes is not the loser like in the USA. The courts have decided that even determination of who will be the candidates, such as occurs in the legendary smoke filled rooms of the DNC and RNC has no legal obligation to be fair or democratic in our two party system. . . . ???????
We live in a kleptocracy with a democratic shroud over it, and most people, like almost all people, do not understand how their rights and money are being stolen from them by corporate pilferage and plunder. In fact our present government is functionally a cryptofascist kleptocracy in which all real power, control of the men with guns and uniforms, the state, and the economy is held by a small group of lying psychopaths. Like Robert Mercer,, the Koch brother, Bezos and the mob of banksters that suck up the wealth of the nation like vampires and offer nothing but bullshit and corruption in return.
And you CNN, are a big part of it. In fact people will come to recognize that you are a key member of the new axis of evil. FaceBook -- Buttigieg -- CNN
1
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News flash: CNN, MSNBC, and the usual suspects report:. . . In the primary
race between Sanders and Buttigieg, Pete came in second over all, while
Sanders came in next to last.
Democracy and the so called representative democracy, democratic republic or constitutional republic are very different things.
They are forms of democracy. In most cases minus the democracy part. When people blithely state that we live in a democracy it is incorrect and misleading, like most of the paradigms that the public is continually bombarded with via the corporate news.
A republic is just a way for the plutocrats to stay in power and still have people think they are in a participatory democracy. The only democracy in US government is is that of congress, and they are 98% owned by the power-elite that decide who will run and fund their reelection campaigns with the legalized bribes of their campaign contributions.
There is representation, but not for you and me. We live in a farce. Are you not paying attention? Do you think that this cheating is something new? Your "representatives" are not there to represent you, they are there for the most part to make sure that the voices of the people never get heard, and if they get heard to never be acted upon. Or if they are once in a blue moon forced by popular uprising to act for the people, soon as the masses disperse they will dismember the body that threatened their power one discontent at a time, jailed, disappeared, or simply smeared and ignored by the corporate media. Have you not been present? Look around. . . .
Real democracy, true democracy exists nowhere on earth other than present day Switzerland and never has (that I am aware of). Representative democracy is a convoluted fraudulent conception. Democracy is something that we are continually told we have, which we do not.
We have democracy in the same sense that the slaves, women, citizens without land, and foreigners had a democracy in the golden age of Athens. Only they knew that they did not have a vote or any real participation in the government. Most Americans do not know that.
It should be obvious to anybody with the slightest ability to perceive what is actually going on that this is a conceptual illusion that is used to mislead and quell the disenfranchised mob. Bring on the super-delegates, the Iowa national delegate formula, the electoral collage, the PACz and Citizens United -- a democracy would not abide these contaminants, or entertain their adoption for even a moment.
A democracy and the state we live in are two very different things. In a democracy the one with the most votes is not the loser like in the USA. The courts have decided that even determination of who will be the candidates, such as occurs in the legendary smoke filled rooms of the DNC and RNC has no legal obligation to be fair or democratic in our two party system. . . . ???????
We live in a kleptocracy with a democratic shroud over it, and most people, like almost all people, do not understand how their rights and money are being stolen from them by corporate pilferage and plunder. In fact our present government is functionally a cryptofascist kleptocracy in which all real power, control of the men with guns and uniforms, the state, and the economy is held by a small group of lying psychopaths. Like Robert Mercer,, the Koch brother, Bezos and the mob of banksters that suck up the wealth of the nation like vampires and offer nothing but bullshit and corruption in return.
the new axis of evil. FaceBook -- Buttigieg -- CNN
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