Comments by "SkyRiver" (@SkyRiver1) on "Secular Talk" channel.

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  6.  @DraconianPolicy  In my view the bases from which the people, at a fair for instance, would arrive at their individual estimates of the number of jelly beans in a large urn is subjective also.  They have no real objective measure either of the total volume of the urn or the volume taken up by each bean.  It is a guess based on limited, though unobscurated perception, and no real possibility of actual measurement.  This is a phenomenon that is noted by the emerging field of epigenetics. Pardon the pun.  So we have an actual situation wherein ants are able to function as an efficient colony, or humans are able to make the most accurate estimate of the number of beans by the average of all guesses. If you are interested in an entertaining exposition of same, Radio Lab did a show about this entitled Epigenetics, or something like that, .  If the result obtained by the mean of all the guesses were dependent on some form of objective measurement, then of course your objection would be valid. However this is not the case. This phenomenon would be equally in effect in a voting process that determined the goals and objectives of a government {not the winning candidate} when such choices were presented to the public without any spin of any kind.  For instance instead of voting for a person, all voting would be upon issues such as. "What percentage of the national budget should be spent on the military?" With a blank space in the ballot were a citizen could provide a percentage they believe to be appropriate.  Remember: this citizen has not been subjected to any disinformation or propaganda, or even any idiotic pundit spin, just such facts as are available at the time, without "expert" prognostication about the resulting impact of various outcomes.
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  7.  @DraconianPolicy  Certainly though it can be said that there is no correct answer to such questions as that about the military budget, it could be seen that outlier answers such as "We should spend one hundred percent of the national budget on defense", will be balanced out by both the mass of opinion and the outlier opinions on the opposite end of such a continuum. It really doesn't matter to the mechanism in play if there is an objectively correct answer. This will still provide the best possible option at a higher rate than any other method that can be employed. You bring up the objection that everyone will be bringing their own prejudices to their personal opinions when they vote. Thus the death penalty for anyone that propagates falsehood or unsubstantiated news as facts.  Try to imagine a culture that is not awash in disinformation and propaganda by various interests. One were the pundits, instead of filling up air time with what will increase advertising revenue, will simply say, "I don't know." or "This matter is unknown or still in question." when addressing any issue that is not a proven fact. (Strangely reminds me of the Platonic debate as to whether new poetic forms would lead to the degeneration of society.}  As long as the populace is not immersed in disinformation from which they form their opinions, their individual attitudes will only serve to insure the effectiveness of the results of such questions. Though really this "democracy really works, but not why you think it does" proposition is a minor and really fungible element of the Techno-Neo Confucian course that I have proposed. We presently live in a world were some governments call themselves democracies and some communist, but the reality is that in both cases, with few exceptions, they are both functionally fascist.
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  8. ​ @DraconianPolicy  Good points. Remember, I said that the best possible outcome was relative to the goals already defined by the populace itself. There is no doubt that not everyone would agree that any particular result chosen in this manner would be the best possible outcome. The reason an urn with jelly beans is chosen as an example is basically because it has been used to illustrate this quite unconscious ability of aggregate "minds" (most importantly to the un and pre conscious neural functions) to reach a conclusion that is beyond the abilities of a solitary mind to reach. The urn and beans is an example that is used because it is too complex of a problem for the average person to accurately resolve by the available methods. I will mention if it isn't explicit that we are dealing with a huge urn of a shape complex enough to defy the use of simple geometric formulation. But to simplify: my position is that the same aggregate unconscious dynamic will give as much advantage in reaching decisions that are most congruent with the goals for society: that the populace has already chosen. Decisions on policy that are far more effective in reaching the stated goals of such legislation than would be those not only of the average person but also so-called leaders and pundits in the very fields addressed. In the realm of symbolic logic you are correct to point out the distinction between the urn problem and more seemingly abstract and complex situations with divers variables. In this sense I agree with your objections, however I submit that this dynamic if properly employed will be effective even though it's mechanism is not fully understood. I found the RadioLab show that I had recommended. It is very entertaining. Emergence aug 14, 2007 and touches on various counter intuitive results of emergence. (I don't know why I remembered this as a show on epigenetics but I was incorrect) It would be interesting to set up an experiment to investigate this effect. You have pointed out in your discussion how the best possible option is subjective, I maintain that this is not the case because the result could be judged in an objective sense relative to an already stated goal. This discussion could go on, I suppose, however I believe that with a large enough sample it could be experimentally illustrated, even if the underlying mechanism of such a processed decision cannot be currently delineated. Did you know that the only democracy in the world today is in the nation of Switzerland? I also cannot think of any in past history, despite all the praise for past slave holding republics and such.
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  25. News flash: CNN, MSNBC, and the usual suspects report:. . . In the primary race between Sanders and Buttigieg, Pete came in second over all, while Sanders came in next to last. Democracy and the so called representative democracy, democratic republic or constitutional republic are very different things. They are forms of democracy. In most cases minus the democracy part. When people blithely state that we live in a democracy it is incorrect and misleading, like most of the paradigms that the public is continually bombarded with via the corporate news. A republic is just a way for the plutocrats to stay in power and still have people think they are in a participatory democracy. The only democracy in US government is is that of congress, and they are 98% owned by the power-elite that decide who will run and fund their reelection campaigns with the legalized bribes of their campaign contributions. There is representation, but not for you and me. We live in a farce. Are you not paying attention? Do you think that this cheating is something new? Your "representatives" are not there to represent you, they are there for the most part to make sure that the voices of the people never get heard, and if they get heard to never be acted upon. Or if they are once in a blue moon forced by popular uprising to act for the people, soon as the masses disperse they will dismember the body that threatened their power one discontent at a time, jailed, disappeared, or simply smeared and ignored by the corporate media. Have you not been present? Look around. . . . Real democracy, true democracy exists nowhere on earth other than present day Switzerland and never has (that I am aware of). Representative democracy is a convoluted fraudulent conception. Democracy is something that we are continually told we have, which we do not. We have democracy in the same sense that the slaves, women, citizens without land, and foreigners had a democracy in the golden age of Athens. Only they knew that they did not have a vote or any real participation in the government. Most Americans do not know that. It should be obvious to anybody with the slightest ability to perceive what is actually going on that this is a conceptual illusion that is used to mislead and quell the disenfranchised mob. Bring on the super-delegates, the Iowa national delegate formula, the electoral collage, the PACz and Citizens United -- a democracy would not abide these contaminants, or entertain their adoption for even a moment. A democracy and the state we live in are two very different things. In a democracy the one with the most votes is not the loser like in the USA. The courts have decided that even determination of who will be the candidates, such as occurs in the legendary smoke filled rooms of the DNC and RNC has no legal obligation to be fair or democratic in our two party system. . . . ??????? We live in a kleptocracy with a democratic shroud over it, and most people, like almost all people, do not understand how their rights and money are being stolen from them by corporate pilferage and plunder. In fact our present government is functionally a cryptofascist kleptocracy in which all real power, control of the men with guns and uniforms, the state, and the economy is held by a small group of lying psychopaths. Like Robert Mercer,, the Koch brother, Bezos and the mob of banksters that suck up the wealth of the nation like vampires and offer nothing but bullshit and corruption in return. And you CNN, are a big part of it. In fact people will come to recognize that you are a key member of the new axis of evil. FaceBook -- Buttigieg -- CNN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfQ7Zo6m9yg
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  38. News flash: CNN, MSNBC, and the usual suspects report:. . . In the primary race between Sanders and Buttigieg, Pete came in second over all, while Sanders came in next to last. Democracy and the so called representative democracy, democratic republic or constitutional republic are very different things. They are forms of democracy. In most cases minus the democracy part. When people blithely state that we live in a democracy it is incorrect and misleading, like most of the paradigms that the public is continually bombarded with via the corporate news. A republic is just a way for the plutocrats to stay in power and still have people think they are in a participatory democracy. The only democracy in US government is is that of congress, and they are 98% owned by the power-elite that decide who will run and fund their reelection campaigns with the legalized bribes of their campaign contributions. There is representation, but not for you and me. We live in a farce. Are you not paying attention? Do you think that this cheating is something new? Your "representatives" are not there to represent you, they are there for the most part to make sure that the voices of the people never get heard, and if they get heard to never be acted upon. Or if they are once in a blue moon forced by popular uprising to act for the people, soon as the masses disperse they will dismember the body that threatened their power one discontent at a time, jailed, disappeared, or simply smeared and ignored by the corporate media. Have you not been present? Look around. . . . Real democracy, true democracy exists nowhere on earth other than present day Switzerland and never has (that I am aware of). Representative democracy is a convoluted fraudulent conception. Democracy is something that we are continually told we have, which we do not. We have democracy in the same sense that the slaves, women, citizens without land, and foreigners had a democracy in the golden age of Athens. Only they knew that they did not have a vote or any real participation in the government. Most Americans do not know that. It should be obvious to anybody with the slightest ability to perceive what is actually going on that this is a conceptual illusion that is used to mislead and quell the disenfranchised mob. Bring on the super-delegates, the Iowa national delegate formula, the electoral collage, the PACz and Citizens United -- a democracy would not abide these contaminants, or entertain their adoption for even a moment. A democracy and the state we live in are two very different things. In a democracy the one with the most votes is not the loser like in the USA. The courts have decided that even determination of who will be the candidates, such as occurs in the legendary smoke filled rooms of the DNC and RNC has no legal obligation to be fair or democratic in our two party system. . . . ??????? We live in a kleptocracy with a democratic shroud over it, and most people, like almost all people, do not understand how their rights and money are being stolen from them by corporate pilferage and plunder. In fact our present government is functionally a cryptofascist kleptocracy in which all real power, control of the men with guns and uniforms, the state, and the economy is held by a small group of lying psychopaths. Like Robert Mercer,, the Koch brother, Bezos and the mob of banksters that suck up the wealth of the nation like vampires and offer nothing but bullshit and corruption in return. And you CNN, are a big part of it. In fact people will come to recognize that you are a key member of the new axis of evil. FaceBook -- Buttigieg -- CNN
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  39. News flash: CNN, MSNBC, and the usual suspects report:. . . In the primary race between Sanders and Buttigieg, Pete came in second over all, while Sanders came in next to last. Democracy and the so called representative democracy, democratic republic or constitutional republic are very different things. They are forms of democracy. In most cases minus the democracy part. When people blithely state that we live in a democracy it is incorrect and misleading, like most of the paradigms that the public is continually bombarded with via the corporate news. A republic is just a way for the plutocrats to stay in power and still have people think they are in a participatory democracy. The only democracy in US government is is that of congress, and they are 98% owned by the power-elite that decide who will run and fund their reelection campaigns with the legalized bribes of their campaign contributions. There is representation, but not for you and me. We live in a farce. Are you not paying attention? Do you think that this cheating is something new? Your "representatives" are not there to represent you, they are there for the most part to make sure that the voices of the people never get heard, and if they get heard to never be acted upon. Or if they are once in a blue moon forced by popular uprising to act for the people, soon as the masses disperse they will dismember the body that threatened their power one discontent at a time, jailed, disappeared, or simply smeared and ignored by the corporate media. Have you not been present? Look around. . . . Real democracy, true democracy exists nowhere on earth other than present day Switzerland and never has (that I am aware of). Representative democracy is a convoluted fraudulent conception. Democracy is something that we are continually told we have, which we do not. We have democracy in the same sense that the slaves, women, citizens without land, and foreigners had a democracy in the golden age of Athens. Only they knew that they did not have a vote or any real participation in the government. Most Americans do not know that. It should be obvious to anybody with the slightest ability to perceive what is actually going on that this is a conceptual illusion that is used to mislead and quell the disenfranchised mob. Bring on the super-delegates, the Iowa national delegate formula, the electoral collage, the PACz and Citizens United -- a democracy would not abide these contaminants, or entertain their adoption for even a moment. A democracy and the state we live in are two very different things. In a democracy the one with the most votes is not the loser like in the USA. The courts have decided that even determination of who will be the candidates, such as occurs in the legendary smoke filled rooms of the DNC and RNC has no legal obligation to be fair or democratic in our two party system. . . . ??????? We live in a kleptocracy with a democratic shroud over it, and most people, like almost all people, do not understand how their rights and money are being stolen from them by corporate pilferage and plunder. In fact our present government is functionally a cryptofascist kleptocracy in which all real power, control of the men with guns and uniforms, the state, and the economy is held by a small group of lying psychopaths. Like Robert Mercer,, the Koch brother, Bezos and the mob of banksters that suck up the wealth of the nation like vampires and offer nothing but bullshit and corruption in return. the new axis of evil. FaceBook -- Buttigieg -- CNN
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