Comments by "神州 Shenzhou" (@Shenzhou.) on "The Armchair Historian"
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+Eric, The Fanboy Slayer World famous Shanghai is now a global financial center, a transport hub and the world's busiest container port, and so much more. Shanghai the largest city in China by population, and the second most populous city proper in the world. The port city has a long rich history, with British colonial buildings next to futuristic skyscrapers, curving highways, majestic suspension bridges, ancient Buddhist temples. At night, the city comes alive with dazzling lightshows, colorful neon light shows, brightly lit boats, and richly decorated temples.
This short 4 min video will help illustrate Shanghai's modernity.
Video: Shanghai Time Lapse youtube.com/watch?v=kI3Oc-sxSoA
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Japan has a long history of invading China and Korea. Even in 1592, Japanese forces led by Toyotomi Hideyoshi invaded Korea with the intent of conquest, and after hearing of the invasion, the Ming emperor dispatched Chinese troops to Korea (Joseon Dynasty) to aid the Koreans in repelling the invaders.
Then we have the 1st Sino-Japanese war in 1894, when Japan invaded Korea again and Qing dynasty China, capturing Korea and Taiwan, and ruling over Korea for 25 years and Taiwan for 50 years.
Next we have 2nd Sino-Japanese war here, in 1931, where Japan invaded China and South East Asian countries like Philippines, Singapore, etc.
So who can rightly say that Japan won't invade China, Korea, or other countries in the future, given that for the past 300-400 years, Japan made numerous incursions into other countries for the express purpose of conquest, given this historical trend? Chinese never set foot on Japanese at all (Mongolians tried but failed) because Japan is low in resources, whereas China is rich in resources, which is why Japan made numerous advances into China throughout history.
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic It was the KMT that started the whole Chinese Civil War, when Chiang Kai-shek purged thousands of communists during the Shanghai massacre of 12 April 1927. So how is Mao Zedong directing unlawful war in China? What do you even mean by unlawful war?
Tibet was part of China since 800 years, and Tibet broke free of Qing dynasty China in 1912, but was reincorporated back in 1951 (after 49 years) so how is it illegal? In 1951, the Tibetans signed the Seventeen Point Agreement (Seventeen Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet) acknowledging Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, so how is it illegal?
Vietnam had invaded Cambodia and overthrew its government, so as Cambodia's ally, China retaliated to teach Vietnam a lesson that's all. Also, Pol Pot was not Cambodia's founder, Tsar Alexander the 2nd was not Finland's founder, and neither are Mussolini and Hitler the founders of their respective countries, so why are you just labeling them as founders?
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+Haruka ino What about Unit 731 then? During unit 731, the Japanese conducted human experiments on Chinese prisoners, including men, women and children. Prisoners were infected with various diseases, and subject to live vivisection, often without anesthesia. Japanese performed invasive surgeries into prisoners, organs were removed, limbs amputated, and then reattached to opposite sides of the body, all while the subject is kept alive. There are prisoners who even had their stomachs removed and their esophagus reattached to the intestines, presumably to see how long humans can survive without the stomach.
The women had it worst during Unit 731. There were experiments with sexually transmitted diseases, by first injecting prisoners and forcing them at gunpoint to spread the infection to other prisoners. Women were raped and impregnated (sometimes by Japanese themselves) and then vivisected at various stages to study the effects of diseases on their organs or on their pregnancy. Some Japanese scientists even raped prisoners and then had experiments conducted on unborn children they fathered with female prisoners there. I mean, can you imagine if you are woman prisoner in Unit 731? Or that you are a man injected with STD and forced to have sex at gunpoint to spread it to other prisoners? Why not inject everyone with STD, instead of forcing prisoners to spread STD by sex?
Chinese people only wanted to defend our lands that's all, and protect our homes and loved ones. But the Japanese invaded our territory, stole our lands, killed our men, raped our women and then conducted inhuman scientific experiments on our children.
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-When China was strong, Japan much copied Chinese culture and language, including Chinese characters.
-When Portugese Jesuits visited Japan, Japan obtained guns from them, as well as Portuguese words like Pan (Bread), Kappa (Raincoat), Tempura (Fried food), etc.
-Now America is strong, so Japan copied English words like Kohi (Coffee), Aisu Kurime (Ice Cream),Sofuto Kurimu (Soft Cream) Anime, Baiku (Bike), Biru (Beer), Buruma (Bloomers), Doraibā (Driver), Konpyuta (Computer), Pinchi (Pinch), Faito (Fight), Keki (Cake), Imeji (Image), Konbini (Convenience Store), Terebi (Television), Tabako (Tobacco), etc.
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic Those people in China died from starvation, because of the Great Chinese Famine, of which is partially due to the weather conditions causing floods and drought, killing off crops, which was beyond Mao's control as a human. Also, Mao Zedong accomplished what the previous Kuomintang administration failed to achieve, that is to unify China under one banner, making him the founding father of the People's Republic of China. Which country would disrespect its own founding father?
And that doesn't change that fact that Koreans are also protesting about Yasukuni shrine. I mean, even Emperor Hirohito himself is against the enshrinement of the Class-A Japanese warcriminals at Yasukuni. There is also a group claiming to represent Taiwanese aborigines led by politician Kao Chin Su-mei attempted to visit Yasukuni Shrine, with the purpose to request the removal of their relatives from the shrine, but were refused and they were blocked from entering Yasukuni by Japanese protesters and police.
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic What warcrimes did Mao Zedong actually commit? Those people died because of starvation, not because of warcrimes, so why sort of question are you asking here to warrant an answer from me?
Since its my opinion, then why can't I be entitled to my own opinion? I have already shown that is not just the Chinese protesting about Yasukuni, but also the Koreans and a group representing Taiwanese Aboriginals.
I never said anything about PLA being better than KMT here at all, so why are you talking about PLA and KMT here suddenly? I never said China has corruption, and in fact, China had corruption during KMT adminstration of mainland China (1912-1949) Before that, the Qing Dynasty (before 1912) had corruption in the government as well. Before Qing dynasty, the Ming dynasty was also heavy on corruption.
You are correct that China has been this way, since the dawn of human civilization. But you are wrong that only be ruled by Power of Force, not belief, not cultural or social views. China has 5000 years of history and is among the world's oldest 'continuous' civilization still alive today, whereas other great ancient civilizations like Mesopotamia, Rome and Egypt have since faded to history. But if this formula is successful to China's longevity as a civilization, then why can't China continue to follow our own path to success? Nobody says every country has to adopt Western democracy to be successful, and China is living proof of that.
You claim I avoided your question, then aren't you also avoiding my question of "Which country would disrespect its own founding father?" Germany (Federal Republic of Germany) existed before Hitler so he isn't the true founding father of the nation of Germany here. I talk about founding fathers, but you talk about war heros and founding father of the 3rd Reich which are different matters from a nation's founding father.
For example, Mao Zedong's face is emblazoned in all our banknotes, just like Americans have their presidents faces in their notes. Because those people are of great significance to the country. Like I said, which country would disrespect its own founding father? Can you actually name a country in the world that will disrespect is own founding father?
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic When did I said anything about ending China's Imperial Rule here? I am talking about the beginning of the Chinese Civil War, and it was KMT who started the civil war, when Chiang Kal Shek started purging communists during Shanghai massacre of 12 April 1927 (also known as "White Terror") Who started the Chinese Civil war then, if not Chiang Kal Shek?
Mao Zedong managed to unify China from its warlordism, in which the previous KMT administration failed to acheive during Republic of China era (1911-1949) You talked about those millions of Chinese deaths, but they were during a civil war, so of course Chinese will be killing Chinese. Its like the American Civil War, where Americans killed Americans, isn't it?
The first president of Finland is Kaarlo Juho Ståhlberg, not Tsar Alexander the 2nd.
Cambodia's Khmer Rouge was overthrown by Vietnam, and the People's Republic of Kampuchea. Suffice to say, Pot Pol is not the founder of Cambodia.
And like I said, Mussolini and Hitler are not the founder of Italy and Germany. Why don't you do the actual research to find out which country's founders are?
Dalai Lama himself signed the Tibetan treaty, and Chinese did make new seals for the Tibetans, but these were just personal seals with each delegate's name carved on them. Other than this, there were no forged government seals. And it was the DL himself to accepted the Seventeen point agreement making Tibet part of China.
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic I am having a hard time following your English. The 17 Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet was signed by the Dalai Lama in 1951, in which the Chinese Civil war was already ended or at a stalemate after 1949 when Mao proclaimed China as the PRC. The Dalai Lama had in his possession the seal of the governor of Eastern Tibet but chose not to use it. That seal, however, was not the official seal of the Tibetan government, so not using it did not lessen the validity of the agreement.
How did China betray the treaty by seizing and annexing Tibet? Tibetan government already signed the 17 Point Agreement, so what was there for PLA to seize?
The Chinese civil war was messy period, and there were indeed many other factions fighting each other for control of China, besides the KMT and the PLA. But the fact remains that Chiang Kal Shek STARTED the war with the PLA by purging communists during Shanghai massacre. And since PLA emerged victorious and gained control over China, then why did you claim earlier that Mao directed unlawful war in China?
China during this warlord period is so messy but its thanks to PLA that China is finally reunified again and the KMT failed to unify China at all during 1912-1949. Even Tibet broke free of China's rule in 1912, but was eventually brought back to China in 1951, after signing 17 Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet. Since you want to claim Chiang Kal Shek didn't do the killings, then I can also claim Mao Zedong didn't do the killings, those people starved to death under the Great Chinese Famine. I mean, you claim all this bad things of Mao Zedong, but if not for him, China would still be divided and fighting among ourselves and fragmented into various states like Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, etc.
A country is strong when it is unified, and weak when its divided and fighting amongst themselves, like during warlord period. That was why a Japan was able to invade China and capture territories, because China is divided and fighting among ourselves. Even when the Japanese attacked, Chiang Kal Shek refused to ally with the communists against the Japanese, and two of his subordinates Zhang Xueliang and Yang Hucheng had to kidnap him, in order to force Chiang into an alliance with Mao, and this incident is known as the Xi'an Incident.
Otherwise, Chiang would have never allied with Mao against the Japanese.
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic Did you just copied an entire wall of texts (from somebody's argument) and just hope to explain why the treaty is illegal? Why don't you actually read what you posted instead and come up with your own argument?
Accord to your post,"However, according to international law, this DOES NOT invalidate an agreement. So long as there is no physical violence against the signatories, an agreement is valid."
Since there was no physical violence against the signatories (Tibetan government and Dalai Lama) then isn't the treaty considered valid then?
Why is it one moment you claim "The use of newly-made personal seals instead of official governmental seals was not legal." then when earlier you claimed "That seal, however, was NOT the official seal of the Tibetan government, so not using it DID NOT lessen the validity of the agreement." Aren't you contradicting yourself here? And PLA tropps did not initiate "physical violence" so as long as there is no physical violence against the signatories, an agreement is valid isn't it? That's clearly what you said earlier.
The government did not "alter the existing political system in Tibet." Tibet has its own political system and a new Dalai Lama in Tibet, so how exactly did China alter the political system in Tibet? Can you explain how China did not honor these commitments?
According to statistics, Tibet's population was 1.14 million in 1951, but it has tripled to roughly 3.18 million Tibetans in 2014, and the population demographics are about 90% Tibetans and 8% Han Chinese. So why do you claim "As a result, Tibetans are now vastly outnumbered by Chinese migrants who receive preferential treatment in education, jobs and private enterprises." when Tibetans are still the majority in Tibet? Where's your statistical proof?
Source:Facts & Figures: Tibet's population is.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ChinasTibet/t427565.htm
I have shown that over decades, Tibetans only had about 100 or so self-immolations. Look at India with over 1,000 self-immolations occurring every year. Isn't that a much more serious self immolation? You mean just because 100 Tibetans choose to self-immolate, means the 3,180,000 Tibetans must all listen to their demands is that it? What makes you think Tibetan self-immolators represent all of Tibetan's views?
The United Nations still recognize that Tibet is an autonomous region of China. I mean, if you think that they don't, then why doesn't US President Trump bring up Tibet during his meetings with Chinese President Xi? Why don't Russian President Putin, or German Chancellor Merkel, or British PM Theresa May, bring up the issue of Tibetan independence to President Xi? When people draw the map of People's Republic of China, Tibet is always included as part of China.
The Central Tibetan Administration is not even recognised as a sovereign government by any country (not USA, UK, France, Russia, Germany, China... even India, its host country) so what makes you think people will listen to its voice? If you want to know how Tibetans feel about China, then why not ask the Tibetans INSIDE Tibet, not the Tibetans OUTSIDE Tibet?
Source:Central Tibetan Administration wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration
The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) is a NON-GOVERNMENT organization, so it does not have the same powers as a country's government and therefore, cannot legally recognize Tibet as Independent. Even Britain and Russia had recognized China's suzerainty over Tibet in 1907 , Great Britain and Russia engage not to enter into negotiations with Tibet except through the intermediary of the Chinese Government, so how was Tibet recognized as its own independent state then? Can you provide actual
Source:The Governments of Great Britain and Russia recognizing the suzerain rights of China in Thibet tibetjustice.org/materials/treaties/treaties12.html
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+Daniel Vedberg Sekulic You said you quoted actual parts of both those who are Tibetan in exile as well as law makers, but how do you expect me to know who said what, if you don't label them at all? I have read and pointed out contradictions in your statement (such as saying on moment that "The use of newly-made personal seals instead of official governmental seals was not legal." then the next moment that "That seal, however, was not the official seal of the Tibetan government, so not using it did not lessen the validity of the agreement." So how do you expect me to know who said what when you don't label them?
You claimed the Tibetans claimed duress when PLA troops occupied Tibet, but you said so yourselve that "However, according to international law, this does not invalidate an agreement. So long as there is no physical violence against the signatories, an agreement is valid." So since the PLA troops occupied that territory, but did not resort to violence against the signatories, then the agreement is still valid, according to your words.
How did China broke our agreement? Could you be more specific about which part that China did not honor our agreement? The Panchen Lama was delegated by the Daial Lama to sign the agreement, and the Dalai Lama even sent a letter indicating his acceptance was also sent to Beijing in the form of a telegram on 24 October:
"The Tibet Local Government as well as the ecclesiastic and secular people unanimously support this agreement, and under the leadership of Chairman Mao and the Central People's Government, will actively support the People's Liberation Army in Tibet to consolidate national defence, drive out imperialist influences from Tibet and safeguard the unification of the territory and the sovereignty of the Motherland." -Telegram from Dalai Lama to Beijing on 24 Oct 1951.
I did not copied my statements about building universities and other modern technology from any source, and they are my own statements. Tibet has 5 universities and they were all established ONLY after they became part of China in 1951. That means under the Dalai Lama rule, there were NO universities in Tibet at all,
Source:List of universities and colleges in Tibet wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_colleges_in_Tibet
The Tibetan Flag is illegal, because Tibet is autonomous region of China, and not its own independent country. I mean, which country formally recognize Tibet as independent? I have shown that even Great Britain and Russia recognized China's suzerainty over Tibet, so when was Tibet ever independent? Does President Trump of USA recognize Tibet as Independent? Does Russian President Putin? Does German Chancellor Merkel? Does British PM Theresa May? I mean, you claim China's occupation of Tibet is illegal, then why aren't USA, Russia, UK, etc, bringing up the issue of Tibet, during all those UN summits and meetings?
You said the Tibetans get heavily discriminated by the Chinese government but how? I have shown that the population of Tibet has tripled from about 1 million in 1952 to about 3 million in 2014, with 90% of the population being Tibetans and only 8% Han Chinese. Its because Tibetans are exempted by the One-Child Policy (which only affect Han Chinese) and they can have as many children as they want. Tibetans enjoy special healthcare benefits and educational bursaries. For example, if Han Chinese require, say 600 points, to qualify for a university course, then Tibetans need only 400 points (easier) to qualify for the same course as Han Chinese. Tibetans also enjoy free education up to university and special tax exemptions that Han Chinese do not get to enjoy.
So how exactly are Tibetans discriminated? In Religion? Here is a video about a foreigner's experience in Lhasa, Tibet, and you can see that so many Tibetans are prostrating themselves in prayer. The guy has been to Tibet before 10 years ago, and he remarks upon how much Tibet has changed, being more touristy now.
Video:Welcome to Lhasa Tibet - Exploring the City (by Vafa Anderson) youtu.be/J-TfN56ETVM?t=301
I mean, if you really think that the 17th point agreement is illegal (and you believe you have enough evidence to prove your case) then why doesn't anyone directly confront the Chinese government about 17th point agreement then and bring China to court? Nobody stopping your countries from bringing up Tibet issue to the International Court of Justice for example. And in virtually every map of PRC drawn, Tibet is always included as part of China.
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