Comments by "Kat 1515" (@Kat-fq4ei) on "Johnny Harris"
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@phynnr3469 You cannot generalize. Spain enacted Casas Laws of the Indies in 1542 to abolish slavery and good treatment and preservation of the Indians, applicable to territories in all of New Spain. Changes are not instant but by the early 1700s the Spanish legally granted lands to the Pueblo Indians of central and northern NEW Mexico. Allowed them self governance, preservation of their religion and language; lands and all are still in practice today, over 300 years. It's in the United States where lands have been given back to the Indians, their lands are sovereign, and the U.S. tribes receive insane amounts in federal funding annually. They are protected under law by the government. In the real world, it was European disease that killed off the natives and don't forget, Indians tribes have been killing off enemy tribes for centuries, before and after European colonization. Do the research, small plots of land.... Would you prefer they still be living in the stone age... In a recent survey on most satisfied ethnic groups in the United States, it's the US Indians who came out on top. Gee, wonder why. Compare to the Mexican Indians, the Mexican goverenment took their lands, no reparations, no nothing. Actually Manifest Destiny turned out really good for the United States southwest Indians. They're still in their ancient lands, now sovereign, all expenses paid by the United States tax payer.
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Under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the SW folks who were descendants of Spanish Colonial settlers under Spains rule, were given rights to stay in their centuries homeland 1598-1770, California, Texas, New Mexico. The ancestors of those from Sonora, Sinaloa and to the south, today's Mexico, were never from the SW. The border areas established in 1848 was out in the uninhabitable desert wilderness in the middle of nowhere for miles. After Mexico claimed independence from Spain 1821, it was generally the Mexican Republic government officials who transplanted to the distant isolated north, meeting with local resistance. And were gone after the Mexican War. 1824-1846, the SW 25 years Mexican Period. California, New Mexico which included Arizona, and Texas were not ancestrally Mexico. Mexico just claimed the lands in 1824 under its Estados Unidos Mexicanos (Mexican United States) constitution , after independence, piggybacked off Spains lands without a transfer Treaty, subjugated the people to become Mexican citizens, even Americans living there during the Mexican Period became Mexican. Mexicans migrated to borders areas approx 1880 with US westward movement and trains during the 1910 Mexican Revolution. By 1880 the USA had subjugated the SW unconquered warrior Indians who had been a very dangerous threat to anyone living in CA, NM and TX. Nothing was stolen from Mexico, the Navaho, Apache, Comanche, Ute, Pueblo, Shasta, Chumash, Piaute, Shoshone, Kiowa , plus hundreds northern tribes are US sovereign lands. Some as the Karenkara Gulf tribes, dispersed to Louisiana or Mexico. These far northern tribes did not inherently know themselves as Mexican. The Spanish remained in the SW homeland under the Treaty to become USA citizens. Mexicans claim California, New Mexico and Texas were Mexico, but fail to add, " for 25 years " making a mountain of a molehill. What is Mexico today is land returned to Mexico under the Treaty of GH. Mexico was conquered, the US flag flew over Mexico which was occupied by the US government after the War, both nations negotiated the Treaty, Mexico was party to two monetary transactions under the Hidalgo and Gadsden Purchase Treaties of $15,000,000 and $10,000,000. The USA annexed lands like any other nation, conquest. Historically correct. It was Mexico who underhandedly took Spains lands. Spains king refused to sign the Treaty of Cordova because Spain did not acknowledge Mexican independence and Spain never transferred any overseas lands without a Treaty. Florida and Louisiana were Treaty'd by Spain. Mexico never had a land transfer Treaty from Spain. Mexicans are not native to the USA never having ancestral roots in the SW. They are not making it their own again, it never was theirs. It's not only Mexicans crossing US borders illegally, it's the world. The US Democrat's needed south of the border voters to stay in power since the 1970s and now the borders are flooded with illegal crossing from around the globe. Adios America, without a border we got a banana republic...
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Mexico only claimed today's SW for barely 25 year's. The Mexico City and surrounding Territories of New Spain fought Spain for a decade to gain independence. Of which Spain did not acknowledge, Spains King refused to sign the Treaty of Cordova. The young Republic of Mexico claimed the SW under its 1824 Constitution, lands remaining in the far north after Spain Treaty'd Florida and Louisiana. Mexico gave into the USA after 25 years independence. Two years into the Mexican War, Mexico gave up, just like it did with Texas. Mexico was conquered by the USA. What's Mexico today is lands returned to Mexico by the USA under the Treaty of GH, including its heart and core, Mexico City. USA could have taken All of Mexico, but was only interested in the far northern Territories in close proximity to the US, removed from "Mexico's" main. During the Mexican Period, the Mexican government only came as far as today's SW became it was colonized by Spain. Mexico government never reached the more distant wilderness of Nevada, Wyoming, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah. All was covered by thousands of unconquered Indians ready to attack. Stolen nothing. Mexicos military was conquered. Followed by two Treatys including 25 million dollars.
Invasion--ask the Comanche, Kiowa, Apache. The hated Mexico invading their indigenous lands. So did the Kumeyay and other tribes. Bitterly battling Sonora and Sinoma. They never knew themselves as Mexican and knew their lands were not Mexico.
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@JamesEgert-zx3bi All of New Spain was claimed by Spain-- Many Territories by name including California to Florida, Cuba, today's Mexico, Central America, Pacific coast, Caribbeans, Philippines. Breaking away from Spain since the late 1700s as Florida n Louisiana by treaties. Mexico City and surrounding Territories claimed independence 1821 and claimed its lands under the Constitution of Mexico, including parts of Central America and todays SW - California, New Mexico/Arizona, Texas including Colorado, Utah, Nevada up to Wyoming. All of these plus parts of Central America broke away from Mexico by independence or Treaty within 25 years.
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@killermentality8859 America is different nations, from Canada to Argentina, young nations in fact, starting in 1776 with the USA. American nations adopted languages from the mother tongues, English, Spanish French, and Portuguese. Much of Argentina is Italian.
The native tribes were many, many languages, and never one government. So there is also diversity in America. As a young continent, American never had the ancient migration, world empires, control, mobility, military, battles, religion, education, cultures, or countries as Europe. It was the European, his ships, horse and guns that connected the American continent.
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Natives did not originate in the American continent. And there's archeological evidence not all came from the northern Bering Strait. Ancients migrated by land and sea. American Indians were nomads, migrated for centuries and most had established where they were when Europeans intervened. Atzlan is a mythological legend, with fables of it being in the west coast, or a paradise island in a lake, and to the north,, todays SW. Or other locations. No evidence of Atzlan anywhere.
The north SW legend fits the Mexican immigrant Chicano movement just fine to justify stolen lands. But they have nothing to substantiate Atzlan anywhere in the SW. Aztec are connected to Central and South America cultures and SW Indians don't acknowledge the Aztec as their ancient tribes of long ago.
Mexico as an independent nation 1821, was never united. It was racially divided, internal rebellions since its founding after independence. If the USA had taken all of Mexico, Mexicans would have rebelled against the "gringo" which means stranger. If Mexicans could not get along amongst there own, they were not going to accept governance by an outsider. Mexico was a different language , culture, and Catholic nation. And why would Protestant USA take on the responsibility of a racist rebellions peoples. The USA was only interested in Texas, California and New Mexico, Manifest Destiny Period. Besides back in 1848, racism was not political or an issue as today when every problem is twisted to racism by propagandists.
Historically the mexica Aztec were from Tenochtitlan, renamed Mexico City after the "mexica" tribes by Spain. "Mexico City" was mexica indigenous land, inclusive of what Spaniards called the valley of Mexico, approx 350 sq miles; not the entirety of today's Mexico. It was in today's central Mexico. New Spain was comprised of many tribes. And as Spaniards explored lands far and wide in the 16th century, thousands of miles, they became familiar with the many tribes, learned their distinct inherent lands which had indigenous names, and knew which tribes were enemy to other tribes. Indians innately knew which tribe they belonged to, In fact, Spaniard H Cortez learned very soon which tribes were enemy to the mexica Aztec and allied with with the enemy to defeat Montezuma. Mexico as a nation today exists only because of historic events--from Spains explorations, to Spains claims, Spains influence, to the splitting of Spains many far and wide Territories and diversity by geography, cultures, tribes, histories etc, not all of New Spains Territories became the Republic of Mexico. All New Spain Territories were governed under Spain for approx 300 years--depending on Territory, independence aquired or Treaty'd off, and today's Mexico is returned lands by the USA under the Treaty of GH. Had Mexico not claimed independence from Spain, there would not have been a Mexican War . Mexico took much land too, greed? They were Spains lands. And took a bigger bite than it could chew. No longer the 16th century, Spain was no longer the world power, 1800s Spain knew it needed American settlers to fight the Comanche to protect its Spanish colonization in isolated distant Texas. And willing to permit Americans Spanish land grants in Texas. Under independence a couple years later, Mexico's government also allowed Americans land grant settlements described under Mexican law. New Mexico/Arizona and Texas are not ancestrally Mexico. Mexico in 25 years of governing these lands barely made a dent. Mexico was gone in the blink of an eye... interesting how people say the SW was Mexico, but fail to mention for only 25 years.
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@TheodoreRizzo Mexicans Indians are from Mexico, Central American Indians are from Central America, South Americans Indians are from South America, USA Indians are from USA, Canadian Indians are from Canada , Alaskan Indians from Alaska. We all know that. Never were one people, one government or one nation. And Indians migrated from Asia and other places by land and sea. Just like the European or any other ethnicity in America. Starting in 1776, American nations were formed. Each has their sovereign borders with immigration laws. And each Indian identifies to a tribe associated with which ever nation they are from as Peru, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Mexico, USA, Canada. A Costa Rican Indian cannot just go to Mexico without immigration law. A Mexican cannot go to Ɓrazil without immigration law. A USA Indian cannot go to Ecuador without immigration law. A Canadian Indian cannot go to Guatamala without immigration law. Even within nations tribes cannot enter other tribes lands without permission, such as a Navaho entering Zuni land. Get the picture...
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Mexico inherited nothing from Spain. Spain did not acknowledge Mexican independence and Spains King refused to sign the Treaty of Cordova. There is no Treaty turning over any of Spains lands to Mexico. After Mexican independence, the young Republic of Mexico claimed its lands under its Estados Unidos 1824 constitution. Uuder Mexicos first 1814 Apatzingan constitution California, New Mexico/Arizona and Texas are not Mexico. What is today Mexico, is lands returned to Mexico by the United States under the 1848 Treaty of GH and the 1852 Gadsden Purchase. Mexico was conquered after 25 years as a nation, the USA occupied Mexico flying its flag over Mexico City. The USA was in position to take All of Mexico, but was interested in only California, New Mexico which included Arizona, and Texas. Prior to independence, Spain had agreed with M Austin to permit American land grant settlers in Texas. Spain had given up on Louisiana and Florida no longer a World Empire and engaged in a war in Europe during the political dynamics and battles against Spain in the Mexico City and surrounding Territories in New Spain. CA, NM, TX parts of New Spain were not involved with Mexico City towards independence. There history was a different geography, tribes, culture's, in fact the tribes were not conquered, except for NM Pueblo, Spanish never merged with the Indian to form a mestizo culture, the raiding Indians lived in far proximity from Spanish settlements. Barely financed or Colonized by Spain due to distance, and fear of Indian uprisings, serving Spain to Catholize the subjugated Pueblos, and guard against Russian and French intrusion. The SW was destined for the USA as the 1800s Spains circumstances had changed.
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All the USA did was win a war Mexico started and couldn't defend itself. To begin with, there would have been no Mexico if Mexico City had not claimed independence from Spain and took Spains lands. So stop crying over lands that belonged to the Navaho, Comanche, Pueblo, Mohave, Karenkara, Piute, Cheyenne, Kiowa, Apache, Arapahoe, Shoshone, Shasta, Chumash and hundreds more. They hated Mexico 1800s imposing on their inherent lands and some of those tribes fiercely battled Sonora and Sinaloa leaving them in shreds. Mexican they were not....
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I don't see how. Under Mexicos first , Apatzingan Constitution ---California, Texas, New Mexico/Arizona are not Mexico. Mexico borders have changed from no Mexico to no border, the Apatzingan border 1814, under the 1824 Constitution border when Mexico claimed Spains lands, then the 1848 final US border. The SW is not historically Mexico and the Apache, Navaho, Ute, Shasta, Chumash, Comanche, Piute, Pueblo, Cheyenne, Kiowa and hundreds of northern tribes will tell you the same. On top of that the entire SW was claimed by Spain, Texas had been claimed by France and California was claimed by Russia.
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@oirampeceda2409 Apparently the difference between Spain (New Spain) and Mexico is different era's, Spain up to 1821 after 300 years. Mexico a new nation in1824. New Spain was controlled by Spain -- explorations, land claims, conquest, government , political climate, Spains king, New Spains viceroy. Mexico was a different era founded by mestizos, government was not a monach, rather a Republic. Mexico did not have the influence, power, money as Spains great empire. No need to conflate Spain with Mexico. Totally different era's. All Mexico did was piggyback off Spains lands left over after Spain Treaty'd New Spains Florida and Louisiana by 1800. Mexico claimed its lands on paper, Estados Unidos Mexicanos constitution 1824. Citizens became Mexican. Mexico was not able to claim Cuba, also New Spain Lands were never Treaty'd from Spain to Mexico, because Spains king did not accept Mexican independence. You might say Mexico stole Spains lands. You need a history book...
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@oirampeceda2409 You mention the Treaty of Cordova, signed by New Spains viceroy, rejected by Spains monarchal system which didn't recognize independence of overseas provinces. Spains king refused to sign the Treaty. Battles continued until 1836 followed by the Calatrava Treaty which was recognition between Spain and Mexico of peace between both nations. There was never a Treaty between Spain and Mexico on land transfers. However Mexico and the USA created a document, the Treaty of Limits, based on the USA/Spain, Onis Adams Treaty to prevent border issues between both young nations, never expecting any of their territories to become an independent Republic as what ensued with the Texas Republic which was annexed by the USA sparking a war on disputed land.
Colonization between the New England colonies and New Spain territories were opposite poles. Spain incorporated Indians to society to form a mestizo culture, while Great Britain colonists separated the Indians from their main. Consequently after over a century and a half, the USA was founded by Europeans, the English governing body was exclusive of Indians or metis; while Mexico was founded by mixed races, a mestizo if you will, inclusive of two cultures. I never stated Mexico 1821 was only mestizo. Pure exaggeration on your part. Some of Mexico's revolutions were conflicts among crillos, mestizo and indian.
The USA was well aware of Spains lands and USA and Spains border lands, negotiating with Spain. The USA also knew of Mexican Independence acquired lands, negotiations were with Mexico.
There are still land grants in the Spanish SW, not all lands were taken by Anglo and in some cases it was rich Spanish folks who were involved in the theft. Most have put this in the past. It appears you like many Mexicans have an issue with Spain and true to your native heritage. That's your right.
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@kansasgoldilocks Historically New Mexico has two cultures other than the indigenous natives. The Spanish Colonial Period 1598-1821 was Spanish colonization under Spain from Socorro NM to Taos NM, primarily Pueblo tribes territories. The Spanish heritage has been preserved from early colonization because NM as well as California and Texas were very distant and isolated, no outside influence from other parts of New Spain or Europeans. By the time of colonization in the far north, Spain separated the Spanish from the Indian, they lived apart, each retained their language, religion and cultures, though there was some contact, even mixed blood. Spain was very strict and journey was once annually with military caravans. All of New Spains borders were guarded and closed to the French and Russian. The vast majority of Indians in California and SW were dangerous, unconquered and Indians did not have much contact with the Spanish, so a merged mestizo culture did not spring up in these northern parts of New Spain. The Spanish remained Spanish and Indian remained Indian to date in northern NM. The mixed identified to the culture they were raised. Mestizo was/is rarely heard in central/northern NM by either culture.
The Mexican Period 1821-1846. The Republic of Mexico opens the borders... There's are now trade routes. Chihuahua Trail to the north and the Santa Fe Trail from US Missouri. Americans began settling from Texas, New Mexico to California. Basically it was the Mexican government officials who transplanted north, to California, Texas and New Mexico which included Arizona. The Mexican government ended up in the same, Socorro to Taos as southern NM was uninhabitable, barren and unpopulated. Californios, Nuevomexicanos and Tejanos were permitted to stay in their centuries homeland after the Mexican War, under the Treaty of GH to become US citizens. After the Mexican Period 1846, during the US Territorial Period, more towards 1880, Chihuahuans and Sinaloans began migration to border areas with the US westward movement. Simultaneously Americans were settling in border areas also. Mexicans as well as Anglos founded settlements in the border areas where you find towns with Spanish and English names. Mexicans bringing the Mexican culture and Spanish language, having direct blood ties and connections to Mexico. Same with the Anglo who brought the English language and American culture. On the other hand, northern NM have been here in the homeland for four centuries, were here before there was ever a Mexico. We are not Latin American immigrants. Same can be said of Spanish Colonial Californios, Tejanos, Spanish Florida. And Louisiana where the Spanish got absorbed by French and Indian. Northern NMs are not Mexican American. Interestingly to the Mexican amongst central/northern NMs, they know we are not Mexican. The southern NM Mexican culture is linked to Mexican mestizo heritage. Central/north NM is Spanish in heritage, yet there is a shared cultures after over 400 years. The Pueblo tribes were subjugated by the Spaniard. And the Apache and Navaho genizaro who were captured as children and raised Spanish. And the other way around, Spanish children captured and raised Indian. These were historically an exception during the Spanish Colonial era. The Pueblo were allies to the Spanish against warrior tribes. Spain awarded the Pueblo Indians
Spanish land grants which they still hold to date, honored by the US Federal government and protected under Federal Indian Law. Because of owners of 1700 Spanish land grants they were not removed from their lands as other US tribes by the US government.
There had been northern NMs who actually were born under Spains flag, lived during the Mexican Period and died US citizens. And notified by officials of the new governments they were under. Mexican is not a race, it's a citizenship. Both the USA and Mexico citizens are inclusive of indigenous, European, African, Asian, etc.
In northern New Mexico, Mexicans didn't colonize during statehood as in California and Texas, because there were no job opportunities, consequently northern NM remained Spanish. It's the last 20 years that there's an influx of Mexicans north of Albuquerque. And there is a notable difference in cultures between northern and southern New Mexico. Northern NM is the Spanish stronghold in the Americas mainly because the Spanish and Indian didn't merge cultures during the 250 year Spanish Colonial Period. The northern NM Spanish culture is being threatened by Mexico's influx.
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@eliseomartinez7911 During the Spanish Colonial Period there were no Mexicans as there was no Mexico. Under New Spain, Spains caste system was Peninsulares, crillos, mestizo, Indio, mulatto but no Mexican. Spain identified its subjects by tribes or Territory. Mexico City being New Spains capital and seat of Spains viceroy was in the Territory of the Kingdom of Mexico and it was this Territory referred to as Mexico, which also land of the mexica Aztec tribes, about 350 sq miles, known also as the valley of mexica by Spaniards. That was the extent of Mexico during the Spanish Period.
During the 1821-1846 Mexican Period, those New Spain territories subjugated under the new Mexican Republic government became Mexican by citizenship and under the new Mexican flag. Mexico tried Cuba too, but looks like Cubanos didn't become Mexican. And Spain had Treaty'd Florida and Louisiana, so looks like they missed out on getting labeled Mexican ....
It was basically Mexican government officials who transplanted north to California, New Mexico and Texas, a handful of Mexican soldiers were given Mexican land grants to encourage settlers in a desert wilderness California, but it was not the typical Sonorans or Sinaloans or those south of there who settled north. After the Mexican Period, under the Treaty of GH, the Spanish Californios, Nuevomexicanos, Tejanos remained in the homeland and became US Americans. No longer Mexican citizens. Northern NM remained Spanish because few Mexicans immigrated, there being more Nuevomexicanos than Mexicans so central and especially northern Nuevomexicanos were not influenced by Mexican culture as Tejanos who were basically incorporated to Mexican culture, yet some may still acknowledge their Spanish Tejano history. But cannot relate in Spanish culture to central northern NM. Still in central NM, folks are Spanish cultured even with influx of Mexicans after the 1960s. And not many identify to Mexican American. There's still an inherent Spanish heritage in the original NM Spanish Colonial settlements as Spain left a a well rooted Spanish heritage, was not mixed with the Indian. Heritage is being lost, not necessarily because of Mexican, but because of 1960s US government Census Bureau classification of "Hispanic" a government generic term for anyone in the United States from a Spanish speaking country regardless of whether or not of Spanish origin. With the influx of Mexicans during the turn of this century Hispanic was popularized by politicians and media and in northern NM, a Hispanic Mexican American Governor Richardson, drew attention to "Hispanic," popularizing Hispanic to where younger generation northern Nuevomexicanos no longer identify with Spanish, instead Hispanic or Latino. Immigrant Mexicans didn't know anything Hispanic but learned under title programs , Hispanic unknown outside the USA and until recent times, Latin Americans have learned to accept Hispanic. Then Mexican immigrant Chicano Studies , which don't have a leg to stand on historically, have also negatively influenced the NM culture. Still very few from Spanish NM identify as Mexican American. Many still identify as Spanish American instead of Hispanic. California's early statehood 1880, populated by mostly Anglo, made a distinction between Spanish ( colonists) and Mexican in those early days before much Mexican migration. Same language, different culture. Spanish California became absorbed by Anglo and Mexican. Nevertheless to your point, Californios, Nuevomexicanos and Tejanos of the Spanish era, 1598-1821, did not come from Mexico. Are not immigrants or Mexican American. Onates letter from NM to the viceroy in Mexico City referred to New Spain. It was early New World 1598, people got off ships in Vera Cruz and headed to Peru, or different parts/territories of New Spain. Spanish Period settlers are not to be conflated with Mexicans who began migration to the USA approx 1880s, more during the Mexican Revolution 1910 , and 1960s Immigration Act brought millions, and uncontrolled borders even more millions that came from todays Mexico. Mexico and the USA are indigenous tribes lands with a history of exploration, land claims, land disputes-- Spain, Russia, Great Britain, treaties, independence, purchases, more land claims by USA and Mexico, battles/wars, conquest, more treaties, borders changes. There were actually Californios, Nuevomexicanos, Tejanos born under Spains flag, lived under the Mexican flag and died under the USA flag, notified by officials of government changes. 25 years does not make a Mexican. Mexican Americans ancestral roots are not from anywhere USA, as are Californios, Nuevomexicanos, Tejanos. Land grants are a different issue, many of those lands are US public domain or Forest lands. And land grants still exist. Other than land grants, many original Spanish NMs still hold titles to many lands acquired from Pueblo tribes during the Mexican Period, because the Mexican government allowed the Pueblos to sell their lands without limits. During statehood, some Indians wanted lands returned and US federal courts in a few cases returned lands...
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@@Azhairmaven77 They were claimed by the Mexican government in 1824 under Estados Unidos Mexicanos constitution, don't forget, FOR ONLY 24 YEARS, 1824-1848 SW Mexican Period. Colorado, Montana, and those several other states, never ever had Mexican settlers during the 24 year Mexican Period because those territories were never populated, so there was no need for the Mexican government officials after 1824 to go that far north, to govern nobody... During the Mexican Period, the Indians like the Piutes, Shoshone, Utes , Arapahoe, Cheyenne and other far northern tribes, were unconquered, and were in full control of their lands, and didn't ever know their inherent tribes to be Mexican because they weren't... Mexicans came to Colorado, Montana and those several other states much later, after those states were well into being part of the United States.
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